The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

[Daisyonthegreen]

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

• on principle

Masses of information from Independent Business for Brexit (Leave the EU.)
Worth dipping into.
businessforbritain.org/change-or-go/

news.cbi.org.uk/businessvoice/latest/brexit-the-business-view/

Masses of information for reasons to stay, backed by a far larger number of British businesses than that site posted by Daisy. Also is not partisan.

Not even worth opening the link as it's more propaganda from the EU -funded CBI.

The same CBI that warned us of catastrophe unless we joined the Euro - thank God we did not

Even the former CBI Director Digby Jones is actively campaigning for LEAVE.

GlassOfPort really? Without wanting to out myself, I work as a manager in Oxbridge and we've just employed a non-EU national in a scientific field, which took 3 months all in all, which is pretty much par for the course.

Springing can you provide a link to back up your statement that the CBI is EU funded?

Their website says

"Does the CBI get money from the EU to promote it?

No. We are funded by subscriptions from our membership and do not have to promote the EU. In fact our members expect us to speak out against harmful European legislation on business, as we often do."

"The Uk is obliged to hand over £350million. An inconvenient truth for the REMAIN campaign, which is why they demand that we stopn using it"

Well its rather inconvenient for you that its not true then #, oh how my sides are aching.

£350 million is before the rebate, which is deducted at source.

infacts.org/uk-doesnt-send-eu-350m-a-week-or-55m-a-day/

A few quotes:

"Our 2015 rebate was about £4.9 billion, so we actually sent Brussels £12.9 billion or just under £250 million a week. Funny how eurosceptics, for most of whom Thatcher is a hero, have forgotten one of her best known achievements."

It also includes an amount counted against Government aid spending, which we are committed to.

"When all the reductions are added in the amount the Treasury actually pays for membership is £6.3 billion a year. That’s £17m a day, or 26p each – half the price of a Mars bar."

Now not calcualted here is the benefit of being in the EU for firms, and the net tax take that it generates through corporation tax, income tax, and the monbey we gain from FDI from EU countries and others outside wishing to invest in the EU.

So like much else, your £350 million a week argument is incorrect, misleading and erroneous.

I am not making it up Degustibus , 6 months for a non-EU national is pretty much par for the course here (respectable Russel Group University).

And this is now...I shudder to think what would happen if the system had to cope with a sudden influx of EU nationals trying to register for a work permit.

You can't use EU funding to dismiss every argument. The CBI is not EU funded either.

I didn't know what the CBI is (oops), so I looked it up:

---

The Confederation of British Industry is a UK business organisation, which in total speaks for 190,000 businesses, made up of around 1,500 direct and 188,500 indirect members. There are 140 trade associations within the confederation who, alongside those direct members of the CBI, employ 7 million people, about one third of the UK private sector-employed workforce.

I'm sure they're doing propaganda, but it's very likely to be propaganda for what they think will benefit British businesses. Which is exactly the point here.

Lurked

^Turkey or the Ukraine. Are technically in Europe, some of Turkey is in Asia.

"Tell the million plus people who needed emergency food parcel this year that living standards have risen."

ONS stats show that the level of household income has raised continually since the 1970s, generally indicating raised living standards.^

Since 1998. the UK has been running trade deficit which means the country is getting poorer. It isn't possible for a country to get richer when it is exporting money. Look back art the trade figures since 1973 and for the most part, while we have been in the EU, we have been getting poorer.

The redistribution of wealth compounds the problem for low paid people because they get shafted twice. Why do you think there is a need to have a minimum wage? it is because there us such a glut of labour that under normal free market conditions, people would be working for coppers; tantamount to slavery. However, this situation fabulous news for big employers. Why to you think they all want to stay in the EU? Because they have a massive pool of labour to pluck from.

The level of house income may be rising but inflation eats away at that. The trouble inflation figures is they are not the same for all commodores. TV's and electrical goods are deflationary because they get cheaper and cheaper, but how many flat screen TVs does one buy compared to food and rent. However, low income families spend most of their money on food & rent. If they smoke and drink, they are for sure going up faster than inflation. Food goes up much more than the underlying rate of inflation. Anyone who goes shopping will notice this. So much for cheap food from the EU

The need for food banks tends to be short term, and is also very much down to an increasing inequality, in general living standards have raised.

Really? Where did you get the facts about food backs being temporary? At the moment they are on the increase.

"Then of course we have school places and hospital waiting times."

www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/research/working-paper-series/working-paper-005

Oxford University shows that Immigration reduced waiting times:

"On average, a 10 percentage point increase in the share of migrants living in a local authority would reduce waiting times by 9 days. The authors find no evidence that immigration affects waiting times in A&E and in elective care. "

A further paper found that the only badly effected areas were deprived areas outside of London, and then only between 2004 and 2008.

www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/economics/papers/2015/giunt_nic_silva2015.pdf

The schools issue could have been resolved if we'd actually built enough schools/extended them enough for the places needed. Its been being said that we need more spaces for a long time. Also we've been funding "free schools" in areas which have surplus place

How can the government plan for schools when we don't even know how many people will decide to come to the UK tomorrow or next week. And even if they do, see my previous argument about the 64 million dollar question, Where is the money going to come from?

Revealed: The CBI receives millions from the EU and public bodies

CBI 'rigged survey to ensure it backed staying in the EU'

"In a letter of complaint to the British Polling Council, Vote Leave claimed that the CBI-commissioned poll was “wholly unrepresentative” of Britain’s 5.2million firms and failed to adequately reflect the number of small businesses in the country."

... "Only 20 per cent of the firms in the survey had fewer than 50 employees yet 99 per cent of British firms fell into that category, Vote Leave said."

"Vote Leave also claimed only 22 per cent of businesses in the survey had a turnover of less than £5million a year when the average business annual turnover in the UK is £673,000."

“These facts are capable of giving rise to the inference that the CBI was allowed to select which of its members were surveyed in order to further the CBI leadership’s longstanding pro-EI stance,” the complaint said."

GlassOfPort Oh I didn't mean to imply you were making it up!

Springing would say "Not even worth opening the link as it's more propaganda from a Putin-funded anti EU pressure group."

let's get this straight. I wrote

^"The Uk is obliged to hand over £350million. An inconvenient truth for the REMAIN campaign, which is why they demand that we stopn using it"

Our actual payment to the EU is reduced by a rebate but that does not alter the fact that we are obliged to pay £350million a week and that will not change regardless of whether our rebate increases or decreases

"hand over £350million"

No, that's not true.

It's OK Degustibus, I know it beggars belief

Bronze, this is the last time I'm going to argue your quasi economics with you.

"The redistribution of wealth compounds the problem for low paid people because they get shafted twice. Why do you think there is a need to have a minimum wage? "
The minimum wage was brought it in prior to the largest amounts of EU immigration. All EU countries have a minimum wage, its to protect workers against exploitation by firms people were working for very, vvery low hourly wages in the 1990s. If the NMW had increased at the rate of inflation since its inception it would be a lot higher and we would have had a rampant and damaging inflation spiral, damaging our international competitiveness.

The redistribution of wealth, in the most unequal countries in the EU is an issue, but it isn't down to immigration more to regressive policies on tax and especially taxes on wealth.

"How can the government plan for schools when we don't even know how many people will decide to come to the UK tomorrow or next week. And even if they do, see my previous argument about the 64 million dollar question, Where is the money going to come from?"

Because you don't just get a place at a school by rocking up and saying I live here I get a place. You need to apply to the LEA etc to do so, you are most likely to have been living in the area for a while. The UK knows how many births have occurred in the last 5 years ( so much so that they can say how many happened to non UK born mothers) we just haven't bothered to supply the places due to austerity.

See here for an article for 2013:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23931974

Where do I get my data on foodbanks from? From the Trussle Trust of course.

"Food banks were predominantly a last-resort, short-term measure, prompted by an‘acute income crisis’ – something which had happened to completely stop or
dramatically reduce their income"

www.trusselltrust.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/06/Emergency-Use-Only-Foodbank-Report.pdf

Food has been deflationary for quite some months now and has fallen steadily since 2012, it did peak massively in 2008 though. Why is food getting cheaper? Those well known German supermarkets Aldi and Lidl causing more competition.

www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/food-inflation

So A4 you can question the veracity of the CBI with vote leave? You brexiters do make me chuckle.

What a state of affairs
Segregated towns,what have we come to.
With no control of our borders we will become a fragmented nation, sad.
We must be in control and the only way is by voting to Leave.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/20/britains-most-segregated-town-hires-pc-to-deal-solely-with-easte/

Because you don't just get a place at a school by rocking up and saying I live here I get a place.

actually, that IS how it works.

You need to apply to the LEA etc to do so, you are most likely to have been living in the area for a while.

No evidence to support that.

The UK knows how many births have occurred in the last 5 years ( so much so that they can say how many happened to non UK born mothers) we just haven't bothered to supply the places due to austerity.

there's a lot wrong with that statement.

You assume there is some joined up thinking going on that uses demographic statistics within rekatuvely short time scales - you mentioned 5 years, to plan UK infrastructure. Your assumption is wrong,

Histiricalky, the identification, assessment and planning of UKs infrastructure needs, housing, schools, roads, homes etc was done by the national census that collected data and used this to make projections and assumptions about infrastructure needs. This enabled needs if the demographic to be met and for infrastructures, such as schools, roads, and hospitals that had long lead times to supply, to be planned and built. MAssumotuons about immigration, mortality rates, birth rates, migration patterns were also factored into that infrastructure planning and development. we have been doing that on an official basis since 1801 and on an unofficial basis long before that.
That system ensured that the UK had the homes,ms hols, hospitals road etc needed to support the needs of its population.

Fast forward to the adoption of freedom of movement and the right of any of the EU's 500 million citizens to come to live in the UK, if they chose to.

the Givernemnt drastically underestimated the numbers of Eastern Europeans who would chose to come to,live and work in the UK. It had therefore not planned and had no time to build the schools hospital etc that the large increase in population suddenly needed.

Hadvthe Givt been able to accurately predict that increase in population derived from EU citizens moving to the UK we may have had time to,provide the infrastructure required. But we didn't. Some are squeezing more and more people into existing infrastructure and hence school places, NHS queues, housing shortages

We would have needed to build a city the size of Newcastle to accommodate the 220 million additional people who exercised their right as EU citizens to live in the UK last year. We didn't.

And even though we now know our estimates were woefully wrong - we are not building those extra hospitals,schools and homes at a fast enough rate to accommodate those who have already arrived - let alone thousands who will arrive in the future. so, as the UK will never be in the business of speculate timely building schools, hospitals etc on the off chance that immigration from EU countries increases we will always be chasing our tails trying to tpretrispectivelynprovide the services that should have been there from Day 1. As we are doing today, with the announcement of an extra £2.5billion for GP services by 2020.

Ds' primary school has a bi-lingual teacher and an EAL teacher. I'm sure you'd be horrified at that.

It actually added to the richness of the teaching environment and the 3 of the 4 assemblies they had during the year (Eid, Nativity and Diwali.... 4th was the Leavers' Assembly) increased their (and their parents') understanding of the main religions in their local community.

If it were that easy spring we wouldn't have the issues were having now. The government have been warned about this for ages and haven't done anything.

See the article I linked to regarding school places in 2012? Was the same in 2011 and 2010.

Your nhs post is erroneous see the Oxford university studies posted above.

Crime up 27% due to ? Immigration is the first on the list.If we don't know who is coming into our country are we surprised?
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3411211/Violent-crime-rises-27-killings-hit-five-year-high.html
I will not risk safety of my children,I will happily vote to Leave.
We need security.

Also it needs to be said that the schools pressure is mainly down to funding. Not EU immigration.

If 25% of all births in the UK are to non UK mothers then less than this will be EU mothers, even less EU 8 mothers the pressure isn't due to EU immigration. As much as you would like to blame it on that.