The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

[Daisyonthegreen]

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

lurked 101
Oh my word now we are being told we have Brexit eyes.
No we have eyes and ears and we don't like what we see and hear as Mothers.
Please stop patronising,it's rude and unnecessary.
Other mums that have dared to come on here have been "chased off "too.
One addressed her fears and certain people were so rude
Give it a rest.

Bronze Bust
exactly.

Oh daisy are you a mum? You've never mentioned it before?

Bronze, we don't have 100% chance to vote out the UK parliament, only 24% of the electorate voted tory. The democracy point is an over simplifcation and one that is used to try to influence people.

only 24% of the electorate voted tory

You're including people who didn't bother to vote.

Of voters, 36.9% voted Tory.

Yes, we do have 100% chance for UK citizens to jointly vote out the UK parliament if they choose. We certainly can't do that with the EU.

But they are part of the electorate, and it still isn't a majority.

We have a larger say in the Council of Ministers than is proportional and the votes go in our favour 90% of the time.

Lurked101

"The EU commission cannot implement laws or force them on countries. They are either ratified by the European Parliament (and changes can be ammended), or by the council of ministers. Both of whom are democratically elected."

Yes they can. How come politians have admitted that when they want to enact processes, they keep hittng walls becuase of EU law. Please don;t try to avoid the fact that we are having to obey rules that are proposed and passed by a regime where we have less than 10% represention. And when another half a dozen counties joinf the EU, our feeble representation will be diluted down still further.

"How come politians have admitted that when they want to enact processes, they keep hittng walls becuase of EU law. "

One because they use it as an excuse and two because they need to get 2 other countries to back them to stop or enact something. The UK only loses 10% of the time on votes.

And when another half a dozen counties joinf the EU, our feeble representation will be diluted down still further"

We have more than proportional amount of weighting in the EU council votes.

stilllovingmysleep

The issue of uncontolled immigartion is not directed at Muslims. It is to anyone of any creed or colour. The "Zenophobic" reference to Muslim's is to do with Cologne. The problem this country has is discussing issues that reference creed. The culture of Muslims is one of misogyny which is not compaticble with western culture where we have fought for decades to eradicate this horrible affication of women.

Also the UK share of the vote increased to 13% in 2014.

epthinktank.eu/2014/12/09/changed-rules-for-qualified-majority-voting-in-the-council-of-the-eu/

The UK has been overruled 55 times in council votes since 1996, but can you give me an example of what these laws were in opposition to?

Some might be ammendments to current wordings etc.

I know one is on the capping of bankers bonuses. However the 10% statistic has raised since 2009 which would be in line with the more euro sceptic approach of the Conservatives.

ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/does-the-uk-win-or-lose-in-the-council-of-ministers/

Chalalala

"Size really does matter a lot here - in negotiations, the bigger guy has the better hand. That's what would happen with UK-EU negotiations post Brexit. That's why the US were able to impose a horrible TPP to Australia and NZ. If our TTIP negotiations are taking so long it's because the EU is such a powerful economic force, it's the first time the US have actually come across a negotiating partner they can't just bully to their terms. TTIP will still likely suck, but the EU is our best shot at getting significant concessions. If Brexit happens and Britain has to negotiate on its own with the US, our cards will be much less good. It'll be the real-life equivalent of that Billy Bob Thornton scene in Love Actually."

Regarding TTIP, why do think that Obama wants the UK to remain in the EU? It is becuase he is condifent TTIP will be passed in the EU and then the US can in one fell swoop get its hand on all of our assets too. If your argument was the case, Obama would be hoping for a Brexit and the colapse of the EU so he can force his TTIP down the throtas of all the individual counties and not have to fight the EU.

Stop raising TTIP, it hasn't been ratified and is at the negotiation stage, and its comedic because all you brexiters slam TTIP and raise the unsigned Canadain deal as an example but that has ISDS.

To raise TTIP is to misunderstand the use of ISDS and how the EU is negotiating them,

I really don't think the US would rather negotiate a different deal with each country in the EU, its expensive and the whole reason it wants a deal with the EU is that the single market is extremely attractive because of harminsation, US firms don't ahve to comply with whole different sets of regulations.

Really the Brexit crowd need to stop over simplifying issues for their own ends, you do it with every single one of the issues in this debate.

To be fair I'm the one who raised TTIP

BronzeBust I suspect Obama is able to take a slightly wider perspective on this, and to see that the possibility of a more favourable trade deal with Britain is not worth all the economic and diplomatic headaches a break-up of the EU would cause the US

Actually do you know what I'm done with this.

The brexit crowd will not be swayed by logic or reason, but will stick to their predjudices no matter what.

When they raise concerns on immigration and you respond with the data that disproves all the stuff about scrounging EU immigrants, massive pressure on the NHS etc, they then move topic to...

Trade, and so you show them evidence that the majority of large and small businesses in the UK think being in the UK is beneficial, that our major exporters in the banks (major service exporters) and our major physical exporters in cars and pharmaceutical firms back staying in the EU for its benefits. You show them independent reports saying Brexit would be bad for the economy and that EU countries have said there will be no prefferential deal for the UK. So they go to..

TTIP, which they don't really understand (which is obvious because they use the Canadian deal as a gold standard), and then don't get that as our no 1 export location outside of the EU is the USA ( and a major investor in the UK itself) that a trade deal is neccesary. The current administration say there won't be one outside of the EU, and that will probably be carried on by a Democratic win in November (God help us if Trump wins).

So you explain that TTIP might be advantageous if the EU negotiates it well and that it has done very beneficial trade deals for us in the past.

So they move to democracy, and yes the UK can't control the EU like it can itself but the picture they paint of a faceless bearaucracy is erroneous and forgets that the vast majority of the time agreements are reached that benefit the UK.

Going round and round the houses again and again. Stuff it, Vote out, fine. But you're taking us into a very, very uncertain times and quite possibly a far worse future for us and our children.

The fact that none of you ever acknowledge anything that might counter any of your views as being correct is frightening and all of your post brexit theories are the stuff of dreams and based in complete fantasy.

Good luck, I'm off this site now, I tried.

Lurkio

The UK only loses 10% of the time on votes.

The UK routinely loses when it does object. We have been outvoted in the Council more than twice as often as any other country. Since David Cameron became Prime Minister the UK has been outvoted 40 times, more than all other PMs in total.

If the UK is only on the winning side when they vote "yes" to something, and loses when they vote "no", that would seem the same as the UK not having a vote at all.

Chalalala

"Well, The short answer here is that we can't have free trade without some significant political agreement too, and that's the way it is - so does it really matter why?"

That's not an answer. How come the rest of the world manages to trade with each other without polical union?

But a more constructive answer would be that it's also in Britain's interest to have this. Because free trade alone is not enough"

Yes it is. A highly efficiant and productive country can make its way in the world. And have done for centries. The real EU agenda is a federal state of Europe, free trade is a fabulaous cover for the actual EU project. How many other counties in the world have to share a currency to trade with each other? Anyone who cannot see what the EU agenda really is must have their head in the sand.

As I have previosly said, the one item I will not negocaite that will convince me to vote in is the loss of the control of our country. In fact I will go as far as to say, if there was a cast iron guarantee that we will never be in politial union with the EU and wlll never adopot the Euro, I could be convinced to change my mind.

"to be a powerful economic force with a say in how the game is played, you also need to have coherent policies and a coherent voice on the world stage. "

The game is played by nearly 200 countries in the world but they do not (apart from the 28 EU member states) share a currency and a common ruling regime.

I'm not going to pretend that some people on the continent also don't have a political vision for its own sake and not just for economic reasons. That's true, and from the start Britain was always different in putting so much more emphasis on the economic aspects that France and Germany did. But I would argue that Britain has always been very clear that it has stark limits when it comes to the political agenda, and has successfully negotiated a special position that so far has worked in the country's interest."

While we havent adpodted the Euro thank goodness, we are getting sucked into the EU regime polically. If we vote to remain, that will be the last vote the Brits ever get on the subject becuase in the next 40 years, the UK won't exist as country. It will become a grey state of the EU and our polticians will become ever more powerless becoming state managers taking their orders from Brussels.

In case you think this fanciful, I went to see the a Rt Hon MP speak. At the end of his speech he mentioned an incident while he was in Brussells. He was speaking to a person whose job it was to figure out how much fruit our school children should have. When he quizzed them why they should be dealing with issues like this, the reply was that there was a childhood obesity problem. When he further quized them of the relevance of this, the reply was the UK has a childhood obesity problem and as you are not sorting it out we (the EU) will.

How does that come across, dictatorial or what and what on earth has that to do with free trade and what business is it of the EU anyway? Vote in to be dictataed to by EU busy bodies poking their noses into every crevace of our lives - NO THANKS.

So I stick to my mantra. Trade with the EU ... Yes. Ruled by the EU ... No. End of. I'm out!

Lurked, yes of course.
The reason they do this is that their arguments are not based on reason but are based on emotion.
This emotion has to do with xenophobia and being against immigration. I also have argued that it is particular immigration they don't like: Eastern Europeans and Muslims. I'm off now too. Tired of this blatant xenophobia tbh.

The reason they do this is that their arguments are not based on reason but are based on emotion.
This emotion has to do with xenophobia and being against immigration. I also have argued that it is particular immigration they don't like: Eastern Europeans and Muslims. I'm off now too. Tired of this blatant xenophobia tbh

Outdated approach that is employed to attempt to close down an argument you know you cannot win.

Pathetic, authoritarian, juvenile smearing that may have worked about 2 years ago, but we've moved on. If you think this arguments is about xenophobia you simply do not understand the issue

Lurked 101

"Stop raising TTIP,"

Is that an order?

TTIP is very much a subject to be discussed and I note it is a sore point with you. Is it because you are well aware of its consequences. It may not yet be ratified but its contents go much further than being a trading agreement, don't they?

I met a UK MP recently and he admitted to me that further disection of TTIP was revealing that is was not as good for the UK as first thought.

In fact I will go as far as to say, if there was a cast iron guarantee that we will never be in politial union with the EU and wlll never adopot the Euro, I could be convinced to change my mind.

There are no cast iron guarantees in politics, so I'm afraid we are at an impasse. No real use discussing further if your premise is that your mind cannot be changed.

SpringingIntoAction

Well said.

It's getting to be a very British polically correct way of stopping a conversation that you're losing. Just pull the race card, it works a treat.

Chalala

"There are no cast iron guarantees in politics, so I'm afraid we are at an impasse. No real use discussing further if your premise is that your mind cannot be changed."

I have stated quite clearly that I could be swayed to vote in. When I see a agreement ratified by the EU that the UK will not ever be required to join the Euro or get sucked in polcial union, I can be sway to vote in.. I want to vote for a free trade zone (common market as it was sold to the poor suckers 40 years ago who voted for it) NOT a polical union. They are two completing different things and I am tired of having to listen to nonsensical reasons why it shoud be both or neither.

I can only conclude that the real agenda is an EU super state ruled by Brussles and I am not on any account going to vote for that.

Who on earth would want to be dictated to by poeple who really don't give a stuff about the UK, who take £350m a week from us and we're supposed to be grateful when they give us back £240m of our owm money and tell us how to spend it. Has the UK become so useless, that our Goverment is outsourcing the spending of £240m a week of our money to people most of who have probbaly never even set foot in our country.

Lurked101

"The fact that none of you ever acknowledge anything that might counter any of your views as being correct is frightening and all of your post brexit theories are the stuff of dreams and based in complete fantasy. "

And you are right and we are wrong, is that it? And you don't accept that perhaps things may not go the way you suggest. Some middle ground perhaps.

What I find equally frightening is you can’t see EU for what it really represents. All this talk about free trade and this and the EU won’t do this if we don’t do that masks the real agenda, an EU superstate.

The counties of the world have been trading for hundreds of years. It didn't need some self-serving regime like the EU to tell them how to do it.

I hope for the day when the EU implodes, hopefully accelerated by the UK voting out, coupled with the out of control migrant crisis, mass violation of women in Cologne, Shengen counties putting up fences, and then all of Europe can get back to business as usual, rid itself of mountains of red tape and unnecessary EU rules that we all lived well without pre EU and form a free trade zone among themselves with no political union, no central bank and no common currency.

Greece is an example of what happens when you try to glue together 28 nations with 28 different currencies, 28 different economic cycles and 28 different interest rates and try fix the exchange rate and interest rate the same for all. Chaos. If Greece had the Drachma, she would have ended up with a weaker currency and then all of the rest of Europe would have flocked there for cheap holidays, Greek exports would have become cheaper and money would have flowed in. That hasn't happened because Greece has the Euro and their country is faced with an overpriced currency. Instead, to "help out" Greece, the ECB has lent them some Euro. What will happen when the Greeks can't pay? They’ll get lent some more, piling on the interest. The end game is either the Greeks default and they exit the EU or the ECB takes Greek assets/infrastructure in lieu of repayment of the loans. Some Union huh?

If anyone doubts what can happen if a country does not have a free floating currency, I suggest you read about the ERM. This was a basket of currencies. The individual currencies that made up the basket could not fluctuate more than a few percent away from the value of the basket. This was a sort of mock Euro.

Anyone old enough to member what happened when the UK was a member of the ERM will know what happens when a country tries to manipulate its currency to match the value of others.

Here's a link for anyone that wants to see the effect of trying to keep your currency at an artificial level that is out of kilter for your economic needs. This stunt cost the UK tax payer an estimated £3.3 billion (and that was in 1992).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

Had we been in the Euro, like the Greeks, we would be suck with a currency that was too highly valued for our trading needs and we’d have ended up in serious difficulty. Since then, the pound has been as high as 1.75 and as low as 1.02 to the Euro. That is a huge variance and a natural cycle. Can you imagine if we could not have adjusted our exchange rate against the Euro over the last 20 years – think Greece!

The only way to make the EU work is to create a superstate so all the originally individual countries become one big country - with one Government, one supreme court, one army, one flag, one central bank, one currency and one interest rate ... does anyone see any of these hallmarks of total union appearing on the horizon? A far cry from the Common Market that was sold to us 40 years ago. I suppose the one advantage will be that the EUSSR will be a free trade zone for sure - because there will no longer be any borders.

Think we won't get sucked into further political union if we remain; it’s baked into the cake.

And the chances of getting another referendum in 40 years’ time to vote out - well my guess is that there won't be a UK left. And even if the EU graciously allow us to keep our old UK brand for our designated area of the EUSSR superstate, I can't see them giving us a vote to leave. It would be as plausible as Devon getting a vote to leave the UK.

I'm sticking to my mantra.

Trade with the EU .. Yes.
Ruled by the EU ... No.
End of.
I'm out.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels

"Frankly Bronze, you're being dishonest.

Well, you know that Cameron's agreement will not be ratified until we vote to remain. You also know that the EU cannot force any member countries to join the Euro, not political union - those countries have to agree it first. And every politician in this country knows that it would not be acceptable to the electorate. You are simply trying to find excuses for your Brexit vote and desperately trying to pretend that you are being reasonable."

Why am I dishonest? I am not going to vote for polical union with the EU. It is as plain as that. Not negociable. I think I have been very honest and blunt.

An unratified agreement is as useful as a chocolate fireguard. Do I trust Cameron and the rest of the EU to ratify the agreement, no I don't. How do you know that the agreement will be ratified if we vote in?