The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

[Daisyonthegreen]

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

The EU started out as the Common Market and was sold to the general public as a free-trade zone. It was not made clear to the people who then had a vote then that the ultimate aim was to have a complete political, currency and free-trade zone with its own army, flag and anthem. This was clearly a move towards a federal union of European states. On what logical basis does anyone think that the EU will give the UK any exemptions from obtaining its ultimate goal?

By agreeing to be members of the EU, we have signed away our ability to ever counter any further political union. Both Schengen and the Euro are central to this. It is my belief (I did say that) that we will be coerced into the same passport-free agreement and currency because, on voting to remain, we will have lost any leverage we currently have (not that we have much) to negotiate our own terms.

If either Schengen or the Euro is allowed to fail, it will mark the end of the EU and the Eurocrats, bankers and elites want to avoid that happening at any cost.

The general public was deceived in 1975 and it is my belief that we are being deceived again.

Exemptions can be undone. A very smart reason can always be found to reneg.

See, I'm right about people only posting on stuff that they agree with.

Go on then lurked101, post us a nice swathe of stuff you disagree with!

Seriously though, it's normal in a debate for there to be two opposing sides, each making their own points. It's up to people to read all the arguments, do their own research and work it out for themselves.

Turkey has to meet human rights conditions to be allowed in, which at the moment with its treatment of the Kurds it won't. Negotiations can happen but this will be the sticking point.

Lurked, from June Turkey has visa-free access which is the thin end of the wedge.

MEPs yesterday voted 375 to 133 to back the initiative by the President of Cyprus who asked the EU Presidency to add Turkish to the bloc's list of official languages.

So with visa-free travel and the recognition of Turkish as an official language of the EU, I am pretty sure they will gain accession soon.

We already have exemption from this

If you are referring to the negotiations Cameron had with the EU recently, these have not been ratified into any treaty and are not legally binding There is no cast-iron guarantee than any of the promises Cameron made recently are enforceable. The agreement cannot be ratified before the referendum because it is conditional upon a vote to remain in.

If you have any cast-iron evidence to post a link to countering what I have just written please do so.

Visa free access isn't the same as freedom of movement though, it doesn't give you right to remain.

The Cameron deal was agreed by the council of ministers, and hasn't been ratified because we are having a referendum. Why would they bother going to all the trouble of enshrining it in law when we might be leaving. If we vote to stay I'm pretty confident they will be ratified.

It's a dangerous situation. Cameron deal has not been ratified because GB is having a referendum - so what if we remain and the deal is not ratified? It's a well-known tactic used in business.

Visa free access isn't the same as freedom of movement though, it doesn't give you right to remain.

But it 's vindication for Turkey. Despite their appalling record on human rights and the genocide of Armenian people, we are giving them visa-free travel. What sort of message does that give?

The Cameron deal was agreed by the council of ministers, and hasn't been ratified because we are having a referendum. Why would they bother going to all the trouble of enshrining it in law when we might be leaving. If we vote to stay I'm pretty confident they will be ratified.

We can both only speculate. I think that given the determination for ever-closer union, the agreement, as it stands, will not ever be ratified.

if it should come to that point, and I think it extremely unlikely, then I would welcome another in/out referendum, and a debate on the issues.

But we wont get another chance to have a referendum. Ever. This is our only chance. Once we are in, we are in.

I've just been notified by OP that WidowWadman is a No Borders supporter. If that is true, then you have no credibility with me.

It would be extremely difficult for the Council of Ministers to renge on an agreement that has been already made because it sets a precedent.

You all talk like the EU is totally anti-UK these agreements were made to try to keep us in the EU, they made concessions to keep us in, which the government are then using to help try to make us vote yes. They aren't con artists saying one thing, then doing another.

Now if they were to do that, the UK would have the right for another referendum, or to withdraw because agreements were not kept.

Why not? We're having one now, simply because too many xenophobes have been kicking up a fuss about immigration. If there were considerably more serious issues like political or currency union what is to stop the government of the day from calling another one? Or even taking us out without a referendum?

Do you think Cameron gave us a vote on the EU based on a xenophobic UK public. There are many reasons why people do not want to be in the EU. The Remainers cry 'xenophobia' when you are losing the argument. I saw this time and time again on the Cologne threads.

I want out because I do not want to be ruled by an unaccountable, unelected EU regime. I love Europe, the people, the food, the wine, the cultures - I love it all. It is not xenophobic or racist to put forward an argument that any migrant wishing to come and reside in the UK either brings sufficient wealth with them support themselves or has a job offer. This is very much the policy of many countries in the world including US, Australia and NZ. Your argument suggests these three countries are xenophobic because they do not allow free movement of people irrespective of their financial status.

As a Brexiter, I welcome any individual from any country in the world to come and help us make the UK the best economy in the world by bringing wealth to create business and employment or by bringing skills to fill jobs for example in the NHS and in private industry. Isnt the EU racially discriminatory because they make it almost impossible for people outside of the EU to migrate and take jobs within the EU?

"Do you think Cameron gave us a vote on the EU based on a xenophobic UK public. There are many reasons why people do not want to be in the EU. The Remainers cry 'xenophobia' when you are losing the argument. I saw this time and time again on the Cologne threads."

I think a lot of the issues that have forced this situation are to do with immigration. A large number of polls have said that the publics largest concern with the EU is to do with immigration, just take a look at any thread on here that talks about the EU and see how quickly it goes into the immigration debate.

"I want out because I do not want to be ruled by an unaccountable, unelected EU regime"

Which is a constant argument of the Brexit crown, however it misundersands the way the EU works and the amount of times that the UK has had a vote that has gone against it. The unaccountable bit is wrong because of the council of ministers and the parliament, it also misunderstands the way the commission works.

Painting the EU as a group of faceless bearaucrats implementing laws that are detrimental to the UK is an old tactic of politicians, gets used by independents all the time (Trump is using something similar in the states) it doesn't make it any more true.

"Isnt the EU racially discriminatory because they make it almost impossible for people outside of the EU to migrate and take jobs within the EU?"

Just over half of all our migration in the UK is from outside the EU, so I don't think this statement rings true. The other part of your argument:

" welcome any individual from any country in the world to come and help us make the UK the best economy in the world by bringing wealth to create business and employment or by bringing skills to fill jobs for example in the NHS and in private industry"

Now yes thats fine, but are you then calling for more complex immigration or less? The next thing is that the vast majority of EU workers coming are doing just what you say. Read the points I made on reciept of beneifts they are under represented as recipients of out of work benefits and only 14% of EU migrants are claiming tax credits. Cameron's agreement with the EU also means that Child benefit for children in other countries will only be able to be claimed at the rate it would be paid there. Remember that UK workers in the EU get the in work benefits in their host countries too!

I agree that the xenophobia claims are unhelpful, however once you present statitics and independent research to people that shows that their assumptions are incorrect and they then attack you, or change tack, you can see that xenophobia is actually the route of their argument. On top of this the amount of conflation between refugees and immigrants, between non-EU immigration and EU immigration makes it even more apparent.

Cutthewaffle - indeed, like the majority of my fellow immigrants. People like me are not the exception. Which is why xenophobic waffle annoys so much. I had nothing other than A-Level equivalents when I arrived here. Under a points based system I wouldn't have been allowed to come here and live with my now husband who wouldn't have been able to sponsor a spousal visa under current rules.

I had an appendectomy on the NHS within a few months of arriving. My children are British, but part of the "born to a foreign born mother" statistic. I claimed tax credits when my husband was unemployed, so counted into the in-work benefit claiming migrants statistic. I competed with British born people (and everybody else) for my job - for the unskilled low wage temp job I took when I first hopped off the ferry to my current skilled professional - you bemoaned earlier that us foreigners taking British jobs isn't fair.
I lived in various private rent properties before being able to buy my own - so I put pressure on the housing market too, in your view, haven't I?

Is it really so hard to understand why the stuff you spout is do offensive to me?

Cutthewaffle - I'm not a member of No Borders and have no idea why OP is making this up, or feels the need to "inform" you about me.

WWadman Your fame is spreading.
I did say supporter not member of OP and you have history on other threads rabidly supporting Open/No Borders, as well as the Calais jungle people.

A spousal visa would not have been required if you were moving from Germany to GB - unless of course you were not born in EU-Europe in the first place.

Cutthewaffle - that is exactly my point. Without the EU right to free movement and under rules favoured by anti-migration brexiteers I would not be allowed in. Luckily for me I had these rights, the anti-migration lot keeps claiming though that people exercising these rights are doing so to the detriment of British born.

I don't know what you mean by "fame", but it appears to me you're looking to play the woman rather than the ball.

Nope, your instincts are wrong, I've been born German, to German parents in Germany, but the point I'm making is that those who are vehemently against the right to free movement would not want to allow Germans in any more than any other nationality. Why it in your view only would be devious abuse of rights to free movement if you're not an EU citizen by birth I don't understand either.

Cut, that last post is balatantly xenephobic and a very nasty attack on another poster.

You have been sailing close to the wind but have now revealed that all your arguments are on based on your dislike of immigration, much of them pretty illconcieved opionions and easy to disprove.

Every time you are called on it you say "my father was from XYZ and they woud think you stupid" or some such appeal to history or origins defence which is fundamentally flawed.

Ignorance is the parent of fear.

Lurcio, go back to your argument with Inkanta and stop being such a big girl's blouse.