The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

[Daisyonthegreen]

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

Can someone here please explain why we need to be ruled by the EU commission to trade with them?

Well, The short answer here is that we can't have free trade without some significant political agreement too, and that's the way it is - so does it really matter why?

But a more constructive answer would be that it's also in Britain's interest to have this. Because free trade alone is not enough, to be a powerful economic force with a say in how the game is played, you also need to have coherent policies and a coherent voice on the world stage.

I'm not going to pretend that some people on the continent also don't have a political vision for its own sake and not just for economic reasons. That's true, and from the start Britain was always different in putting so much more emphasis on the economic aspects that France and Germany did. But I would argue that Britain has always been very clear that it has stark limits when it comes to the political agenda, and has successfully negotiated a special position that so far has worked in the country's interest.

Eels is back to being rude again. No need for it.

I have always had a problem with xenophobia

Stilllovingmysleep. You think what I say is xenophobic ..... you don't know what xenophobia actually is, you dont know what it looks like, smells like, nothing. Take a trip to Asia or to any of the MENA countries for example. You will be blown off your fluffy perch when xenophobia walks right up to you. Actually, I've always had a problem with stupid.

Springing news.sky.com/story/1652305/nhs-scandal-as-uk-pays-millions-to-eu

I'm glad these figures are now in the public domain. I would have liked to inform MN threads about this but was prohibited from doing so. However, on the occasion when I have said that our International Health Service is spending taxpayer money but not recouping much, I was shouted down.

I have been always quite pro Europe but from reading about things in a little more depth am rather put off the whole organisation - I will still vote to stay in. but I think that the arrogance and bureaucracy and Strasbourg (why?) need an overhaul.

The organised Remain contingent: Are you really saying that the increase in EU people coming to GB has had no effect at all on the availability of rented housing and level of rents? Are you really saying that an increase in the number of people who chase accommodation has not changed?

Cutthewaffle - frankly, xenophobia in other countries is irrelevant to the question if unvalidated claims that foreigners come here to take out more than they contribute are xenophobic. You might find the screeching frontpages from the Express, Mail and other tabloids "fluffy", to me it's being told almost on a daily basis that I don't belong here, shouldn't be here and take what I don't deserve. It's not fluffy at all to me, nor is it to many others who came to live here for a variety of reasons, but not to exploit a system, like we're so often accused of.

I didn't think it was rude, I thought it was fairly accurate. Cut just above has been rude to someone else but that won't be acknowledged by the

Eels, I find that all the time. You post reasonable , well sourced arguments and they either ignored or another argument is pulled out of the bag.

Let me give you an examples:

EU immigrants all come here and claim benefits

No, DWP and other data shows that EU immigrants do have a slightly higher % of people claiming tax credits than UK nationals 14% - 11% but the OUMU says that EU immigrants less represented in the unemployed benefit statistics than their size of the population would represent They are 16% of the working age population make up only 7% of the claimant count.

However even then the impact can actually be analysed when calculating the number of people actually recieving in work benefits. So when you work out that 420,000 are recieving benefits you can analyse that their impact on the public purse is very low.

In contrast 11% of the British born work force get tax credits so

So take out the fact that there are about 27 million of them so this equates to 2.97 million, a far higher burden.

OUMO data shows that the majority of EU immigrants are young workers and do not impact services, another Oxford University study shows that immigration actually benefits the NHS, shortening waiting times etc, rather than causing stain on the service.

The UCL study shows that EU immigrants are net fiscal contributors, Migration watch contested this and changed the "assumptions" that UCL took. The cost of school education where one parent was British and the other and EU national was put down as a cost of the British parents, when Migration watch changed this to be 50/50 there was a small net deficit. However it has been contested that the migration watch data is flawed because any national of this country is entitled to education and therefore the cost should not be written down, and secondly that a large proportion of the children educated in this manner were that of Irish nationals.

Trade: The EU relies more on us than we do on them. We will negotiate a better deal for the UK

We won't. The French and the Germans ( who have bigger economies than us) have both said that full access to the free market would not be negotiable without contributing to the EU and accepting the 4 freedoms.

We are not Canada, the USA or Australia. We have a far larger proportion of our trade with the EU, 44% of our exports go there and 54% of our imports come from there. We also share borders with the EU, and as previously stated, if the UK to were get the deal Brexiters want it would force the break up of the EU, because why should anyone pay in and accept costs when you can get all the benefits for free?
The EU will have the stronger hand, EU firms will not accept those from the UK being handed a larger competitive advantage over themselves, the hit to EU trade (15% of exports) would be far larger than ours. As it makes up more than half of our imports our consumers would suffer too.

The EU will take us into TTIP and make us subject to ISDSs. Well for one the Canadian deal that you all laud is going unsigned because of ISDSs, and we have them already in trade agreements with other sides. TTIP could be very beneficial and the reason it is taking so long to negotiate is the EU has a very strong negotiating position, it doesn't have to take the US's terms like other countries have to. The US have also said that there will be no seperate trade deal for the UK outside of the EU, worriyng as they are the second largest destiniation for our exports, and one of the massive contributors to our trade in services which helps keep our BOP out of the mire completely.

Other EU countries want us to stay because being in the EU benefits everyone, they will not cut us a deal which leaves them with the costs and us with the benefits for free.

In terms of trade the CBI, the car industrty and hundred of other businesses have said that the EU is beneficial to them and are backing remaining.

The trade argument is dead in the water.

The EU is beauraucratic and undemocratic and makes up a huge % of our laws

We don't have the same say in the EU that we do in our own country, but we have a larger proportional say in the council than other countries and can veto if we get another 3 countries to back us. We have been on the winning side of 90% of the votes.

EU commissioners to do not get to enforce laws, they are negoitiated by teams of civil servants from each countries (who will back their own countries interests) this is why the process takes a while. They are then taked to the Council of ministers (elected from home nations) or the EU parliament to be debated and either ratified or sent back for ammendment.

Only 12% of the laws on statute are made up of ones directly influenced by the EU , many of the other regulations we would have to follow in order to be able to trade with the EU.

The beauraucracy/undemocratic argument is given when the first two are dead in the water anyway. As the EU parliament has proportional represesntation it could be said to be more democratic than FPTP.

Kennington, do you think the EU will reform itself? I dont. If they wont reform now when we are the second biggest contributor and on the verge of leaving, I doubt, if we stay in, they will have any reason at all to reform.

What I think will happen (brief and sketchy, I could go on) is we will be coerced into deeper political union. This will include Schengen and the Euro. then, when the very poor countries awaiting accession, succeed, our subs will rise dramatically to build infrastructure in the new member nations.

The EU has big expansion plans. We will see a sharp rise in EU migration as people seeking work from countries such as Kosovo with 30% unemployment, and Montenegro (minimum wage of under £300 a month). As Turkey gains accession we will have an EU border with Syria, Iraq and Iran. We will also see more cultural tensions as a mainly Muslim country joins the union.

These are all indicators that being out of the EU is best for us and for our children. There are many more reasons which have been discussed up thread. To me, the advantages of staying in are vastly outweighed by the advantages of leaving.

Just an observation from someone not in the UK. What we are being told about Brexit basically is that if you vote to leave then in order to insure the free trade agreements the UK need you will have to sign up for the free movement of people agreement so that stops the "close your borders" benefits touted.

What I can gather from the Brexit side very simply seems to be "we will have all the benefits with none of the disadvantages, don't worry they need us more than we need them". Well the general opinion in the other EU countries seems to be "well if they leave, stuff them. Make it as difficult as possible for them to have the benefits, why should they. It's like none trade union members benefitting from the work of the members.
Also having many friends in high up management positions in business, while UK based companies may like to leave for various reasons, a lot of the EU, US etc companies are already checking out moving to Ireland as it will be the only English speaking country in the EU.

But as I say this is just to give you a view on what is being talked about outside the British media

In fact DC negotiated a deal that exempt us for ever closer political union.

Workers rights won't get you a job if you are in a queue with 100 other people competing for a job. You are missing the point.

Exactly. HR depts everywhere are swamped with applications per job they advertise. Accommodation ads that appear are swamped with phone calls; a room in a shared house + share of bills usually goes in less than 3 hours.

Widow You have told us you have a good job in England, you have been here at least a decade, and you had your family here. So what are you complaining about? You are an example of freedom of movement who is paying her own way thru life.

Anna Forbes: Once again you hit the nail on the head.
Your post 17thApril 16 12 30 40 for mums to view.
There is absolutely no doubt that if we are mad enough to vote to remain we will be coerced,forced into an ever suffocating Union of the EU.
We would have basically to accept being bossed by the German who lets face it call the shots.
No I'm for Democracy.
At least we can vote out our Governments when we LEAVE.
The EU is our MASTER at present....not good
Any one with common sense will vote Leave.

*Germans

I don't think they will restructure unless they are forced to which may happen and be out of their control. I think greece exiting the eurozone will eventually happen and precipitate difficult decisions being made.
I disagree with EU expansion and don't think Turkey have much hope due to the Cyprus issue and the fact that France and a few others won't want them in.
Germany is keeping things going at the moment but once merkel goes and their economy has a wobble I think things will unravel fast.
Am wildly speculating though!!!

See, I'm right about people only posting on stuff that they agree with. Daisy you agree with Anna for her "fears" over immigration, but have no fears of the economic impact of brexit on your children?

Immigration might be on threat but a period of recession and stagnation, falling FDI and loss of international competitiveness is going to be far worse for all of our children.

Another woman's view.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3456595/LET-S-Employment-Minister-Priti-Patel-says-quitting-Europe-make-Britain-stronger.html

Turkey has to meet human rights conditions to be allowed in, which at the moment with its treatment of the Kurds it won't. Negotiations can happen but this will be the sticking point.

Hover
I have EVERY confidence in our ability to thrive,good gracious I have posted enough opinion and posts on the "In out shout it all about" site.
They can be viewed there.

Hover:
You can't seriously expect me to agree with people I don't agree with!

Daisy is your argument the same as the one that I refuted above? That we will negotiate a deal to access the full single market (unlike Canada and Aus) not contribute and not accept freedoms?