In,out,shake it all about,the EU ,what's best to vote.

[Daisyonthegreen]

Nothing on here,or am I wrong,I'm a newbie so be patient with me.
Anyhow here goes it's the Referendum on the European Union on the 23 June this year.
I'm voting Leave.
How's about you guys?

When something is not understandable I always remember what someone in politics once said ...... "Just follow the money, that's the driver."

Waffle: The Uk would have to opt in to Schengen for things to change. The other 27 can not out vote the UK on this isssue.

Step - can you give some specific examples of "the EU" "strong arming" the UK into something? Which legislation are you referring to?

It was a question and a comment. Has the EU over ridden us before? If it has then there is nothing to say it wont again. If the EU has not....then we are OK. ( for the time being).

CutTheWaffle,

the following was written by a Professor of EU Law:

the UK does not have to join the Schengen system. This special status is secured by a legally binding Protocol to the EU Treaties, which was negotiated as part of the Treaty of Amsterdam. If the UK decides to remain in the EU in the forthcoming referendum, this would not mean that the UK would be required to join Schengen, since the Protocol would still be in force. That Protocol cannot be amended or repealed without the consent of the UK, and British law requires another referendum before that could happen.

(my emphasis)

ukandeu.ac.uk/the-uk-and-the-schengen-system/

Can some one explain to me the difference between free movement of people and normal control ie someone coming from America?

Some people are arguing for the rights of the criminal on this thread, but what about the rights of the citizens of this country to live and go about their business protected by their government?

"Just follow the money, that's the driver."

A lot of people are following the money when it comes to the EU. The large companies and banks for one thing. It's very interesting to see where people plot money in relation to democracy.

Has the EU over ridden us before?

Yes. Britain has been frequently outvoted by the rest of the EU.

The EU has unelected leaders that you cannot vote out or remove, we pay in millions of pounds every DAY, and our borders are open to every person who would wish us harm, our schools are full of non UK children, and our medical services are at breaking point.
For my kids I vote out.

Many BIG decisions to do with the EU have been taken however without the consent of the people.

Merkels recent decision to welcome ALL to Germany, has crushed Greece and the German people are being adversely affected. Were they asked? Consulted before the decision was made?

When Blair decided not to put work brakes on Poland, did he ask the people of the UK first? After all - free movement of people, did not mean much until the poor eastern bloc countries were able to access the richer ones.

Step into

That's the question many of us have been asking for the last three months.

Unfortunately several No Borders activists/sympathisers have infested these threads on MN. They do name change on a regular basis but you get to recognise them after a while.

They are the ones that put the rights of refugees (I use the word lightly) before the women and children of their host nation.

Can some one explain to me the difference between free movement of people and normal control ie someone coming from America?

Free movement really means the right to study and work in the UK without a visa.

In terms of security checks at the border, there is no difference between an American citizen and an EU citizen, but if they want to work or study here the American would need to apply for a visa first.

Incidentally these rights are not EU rights, they are EEA rights, which is a separate thing and would not automatically disappear after Brexit.

Thanks Helpful, I find it strange that some would argue for the human rights to be upheld of one criminal, in every way.

Its like the argument against the death penalty. If just one innocent person is accidentally killed in error, then its not worth having the death penalty.

And yet, people in the UK, UK citizens who are supposed to be protected by their Government have been killed or maimed by the Governments decision to allow free movement of people.

Are their, our lives worth anything? I would argue that all our lives count and as such our government needs to careful scrutinize every single person that comes into the UK for past criminality, before allowing them in.

Our Government has a duty of care to us and not a single person should loose their life because of the larger aims of a political organization.

Totally agree Step into.

Excellent post.

Chalala everywhere I am reading about the damage that free movement of people is causing this country.

Everywhere, so I am flummoxed as to how you can deny that its an issue.

Maybe I wonder this is the very reason people seek to deny it, because its over whelming, they cant argue against it - so they deny it and try to make it all sound OK because we have to do a cursory flick of our passports.....and cling to the fact we are not in Sche - as though that makes us all safe and sound.

Daisy
Though I've never quite used the term little Englanders it does describe the attitude of "pull up the bridge" that the leave campaign continues to try and foist on us. The point is the world has changed and no border can hold out the global threats we face- ecconomic, political terrorist to name but a few. Ecconomicly I've experienced the benefits, manufacturing and exporting I my industry only survived due to the marine equipment directive. Politically we fair better as part of a United block, we sort our European differences internally and face the world as one. The threat from terrorists and rouge states is only combated by strength in numbers, standing alone we are a weaker more tempting target. Again you attack me rather than the case to remain - this tells us all something. Perhaps, that you are angry and want someone to listen to your fears.Unfortunately voting leave as a protest against unconnected issues will damage this country. Its reminiscent of the actions of a drunk shouting at the world, they feel better but only till the morning after!

what about the rights of the citizens of this country to live and go about their business protected by their government?

How are these rights not protected? There is a police force and a justice system that sends criminals to jail, that's normally what governments do to protect their citizens.

StepintotheLightleave are you referring to my last post about what free movement means? Those were just the facts, I didn't even add my own opinion, so I'm not sure what you want from me... What did I say that was inaccurate?

Chala tell that to the women in Germany and Sweden that have been raped. In Germany there are 500k unregistered immigrants, quite hard for the police to find them I imagine and in Sweden the police are no longer allows to racially profile perpetrators of crime.

In Sweden and Norway, rather than preventing these crimes from occurring, women are being told not to go out after dark. They are under virtual curfew, if it can happen their it can happen here.

I assume you are happy for that to happen.

Step
The decisions you reference by Blair and Merkel were made by the elected leaders of those countries as leader. Theses were not EU decisions. So whats your point?
To provide total security is impossible without becoming a police state - incidentally just what checks and balances prevent!

HelpfulChap we've had this discussion before, please don't put words in my mouth, of course what is happening is horrendous, and yes, there is definitely an argument to be made that Germany made a mistake allowing these numbers of migrants in. I'm not making a "no borders" argument at all, contrary to what you seem to think.

Total security is impossible....

Yeah, just let women take their chances and hang them out to dry in the name of political correctness.

Have to love the female solidarity on MN, if you get raped don't blame the perpetrators, blame the politicians that permitted it.

You really couldn't make this up.

Typical minimising, defection and excuses from people who have an agenda to promote.

I will defend the rights of British women of what ever race religion or creed over those of misogyinistic sex criminals all day and every day.

It is shameful that anyone, particularly o MN, would argue otherwise.

And yet, people in the UK, UK citizens who are supposed to be protected by their Government have been killed or maimed by the Governments decision to allow free movement of people.

Hang on, are we even talking about the same thing here? Free movement to the UK only applies to EU citizens, not to the migrants/refugees currently in Europe...

Are the EU immigrants currently in the UK particularly prone to murder and maim British citizens? I wasn't aware of that, I have to say that's an argument I hadn't yet heard from Brexiters.

HelpfulChap let's take a practical example. Let's assume a genuine migrant from Syria rapes a German woman - that's horrendous, he's scum and I have zero sympathy for him.

You are saying he needs to be sent back to Syria to be potentially murdered or starved, or at best to be let free to roam and rape again in his home country. I am saying he needs to go to jail in Germany for a long, long time. I honestly don't understands how my position jeopardises the rights of women, or how I am excusing or diminishing what he did.

Free movement really means the right to study and work in the UK without a visa.

From some of the arguments, you'd think no-one would ever be able to even take a day trip to Paris, let alone work or study in another EU country. But of course, all of those things were done regularly before the EU existed. Quite a few people studied abroad, or married and lived in their spouse's home country.