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Ethical dilemmas

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Ignorant quetion, and not sure how to put this tactfully, but why do people not want to have a baby with DS?

385 replies

LesAnimaux · 10/04/2011 20:59

I don't want to offend, or be flamed, but I am curious.

I've seen several threads where posters have terminated a pregnancy when they have found out their baby has Down Syndrome, and then gone on to ttc a "normal" baby.

Now, I don't personally know any one with DS or any parents of children with DS, so I genuinely don't know the difficulties they face. Is life with downs syndrome really so bad? Or is it the thought of a child growing into an adult with SN and having no one to care for them when the parents are no longer capable?

Out of all the things I worried about when pregnant, downs syndrome wasn't one of them.

OP posts:
ghislaine · 13/04/2011 18:19

Can MNHQ really not think of anywhere else this thread could go? Perhaps in Off the Beaten Track?

computermouse · 13/04/2011 18:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CheerfulYank · 13/04/2011 18:28

I don't think it should be deleted outright but yes, this is a horrible place for it to be.

Move it please!

ghislaine · 13/04/2011 18:29

Tillianastra and computermouse, you, like MNHQ, are taking a far too literal view on where this thread should go based solely on the name of the section. In the face of the context that has been provided again and again by the women who actually use this board your lack of comprehension is stunning.

livefortoday · 13/04/2011 18:29

ok I haven't read all of this thread as too long, but get the jist.
I think many of you seem to have views of what a person with down syndrome is like and think they are all the same. this is obv not true.

Also many of you talk about people in their 30s+ who are now in care homes/ difficult. I think what you need to see is that attitude towards anyone nowdays with a disability is different from 30 years ago. Children in the 70s were most likely pushed out of society and not encourage. This is a world away from today. where although often fought for, speech therapy, physio, osteopathy..music therapy ..etc.. is available, mainstream schools encouraged and supported. children are very much encouraged along in their lifes leading to hopefully mature, independant adults

Note: I am a full time carer to a child with Down syndrome and their siblings. Each child gets treated the same, encouraged the same, spoken to the same, and disciplined the same! Yes it is more difficult in many ways, but they are just beginning to reach a age where things are getting easier. They can walk, talk and be understood, beginning to read and write. Is dependent in most things you would expect a child of that age to be. They are social, make friends, and enjoy every activity going.

I currently would not let them out of my sight for a moment as a runner! :)

MyangelAva · 13/04/2011 18:54

I can't believe that this thread is still here. JustineMumsnet can you not see the anguish that is occuring here by vulnerable people who are living this "discussion topic"?! Even the title is provocative- "why not WANT a DS baby".

Pookiecat thank you for proving the point that unhelpful and insensitive posts are adding to this anguish for parents who have made and are making the heartbreaking decisions that you have been fortunate to have avoided. My baby had a fatal chromosomal abnormality and an associated heart condition. I didn't want a perfect baby- one that could have survived would have been nice- but thanks for judging.

And computermouse please see the above as a case in point. Of course everyone has the right to comment but judgmental and ignorant comments are often made by those who have not worn these horrible shoes. Yet.

Again, I echo calls to remove this thread from here because it is entirely unsuitable and is causing a great deal of mental & emotional harm for a good number of people.

ChippingInMistressSteamMop · 13/04/2011 18:58

I agree that this is not the right place for this thread to be.

It doesn't matter why this topic was set up, it's not how it's currently being used and that should be respected.

There are lots of upsetting things that get posted in chat. It was clear from the thread title what it was about - it is easy enough to select to hide it.

It is FAR worse here :(

DuelingFanjo · 13/04/2011 19:19

would MN HQ move a thread titled "Ignorant quetion, and not sure how to put this tactfully, but why do people decide to have babies with DS?" to the special needs part of these boards? Would people object if I started one in that area?

MyangelAva · 13/04/2011 19:50

A very good point dueling

expatinscotland · 13/04/2011 20:16

'Would people object if I started one in that area?'

I doubt anyone would. From my experience there (my child's SN could not be diagnosed antenatally, not that it would have made any difference), people would answer and discuss, rather than getting upset at anything that's not directly in line with their own opinions.

Hmm
expatinscotland · 13/04/2011 20:17

HQ can't win here, because basically, folks who don't want to see this issue discussed aren't go to be happy no matter where the thread is.

That doesn't mean the matter shouldn't be discussed, however.

There's always 'hide this thread'.

Heaven knows, plenty of us on the SN boards have to do that a lot.

NatzCNL · 13/04/2011 20:22

Expat, it is good to know that the parents in the SN forum would be able to discuss that topic without getting upset. But the parents that are using this forum are in a very emotional and vulnerable state when they come to seek support and advice.

To expect parents who are going through a highly emotional and very sudden experience to be happy to sit back and not feel judged or take offense to this new and scary situation they find themselves in is a bit much.

The reason we want this moved is to protect those who are going through emotional turmiol at the moment and give them the much needed support that they may not feel they can get in real life, rather than being judged for their decision.

Northernlurker · 13/04/2011 20:23

Just coming back to this thread and I see I'm not alone in being surprised this thread was moved here - though clearly there are a number of differing perspectives.
For me - this thread is a debate to which people have bought personal experiences to inform their point. It was not a thread intended to reflect on any one situation or provide support to any one poster. It is totally wrong imo to have moved this thread at all.
Life will bring us all painful and at times impossible choices. Nobody has a charmed life - at some point things fall apart for everybody. It is unwise for any of us to try and live as if that isn't the case and refuse to confront that aspect of our world. You are also on a hiding to nothing if you try and think that your personal choices will not make differences to other people. We all live in communities and our attitudes are formed and influenced as a group. It HAS to be possible therefore for people to talk about even the most very painful aspects of our lives freely and without being shunted in to a discussion ghetto. This thread was plain in it's title, has been well structured in arguement, is overflowing in honesty - and in the pain that comes with these most difficult decisions. There is nothing wrong with this thread and it should be in a section where those who want to debate can do so. That isn't this choices section and it isn't off the beaten track either.

UrsulaBuffay · 13/04/2011 20:25

How about 'Other Subjects' or off the beaten track even?

DuelingFanjo · 13/04/2011 20:35

I wondered if the OP put any thought into where she posted it, did she mean for it to be in chat rather than here? I wouldn't really dream of posting the thread I suggested in SN by the way but I think it's a point worth making. we all hide threads I am sure, but when they are posted in areas like this then it will be upsetting for those who have felt safe to discuss difficult decisions here.

Original poster
LesAnimaux · 13/04/2011 20:38

As the OP, I didn't post in the antenatal choices topic initially because I didn't want to be too in the face of people who were going through antenatal tests and having to make difficult choices.

I chose to post in chat because I thought I might be flamed and if so wanted the thread to eventually disappear.

I have been humbled by the response to this thread, and relieved it hasn't turned into a fight.

OP posts:
NatzCNL · 13/04/2011 20:39

DuelingFanjo, this post was originally in Chat, however Mumsnet HQ decided it belonged in AT/C and are refusing to move it elsewhere Hmm

DuelingFanjo · 13/04/2011 20:43

yes, Natz - I know it's been moved. Sorry - I meant was it her intention to not have it here and that was why she posted it in chat.

Thanks LesAnimaux thank you for clarifying. I had thought you probably put it in chat so it would disappear. I won't post anymore because at least then I won't be bumping it all the time.

Original poster
LesAnimaux · 13/04/2011 20:46

The fact that chat is a sub topic of "fun and games" did make me hesitate....the only other place I considered posting was "other subjects", but as I said I posted in chat because I'm a wuss and wanted the thread where I might would disappear.

It's a thread I've thought about starting for a couple of years, but have been too scared. As I said earlier, I have learned a lot, so am glad I started the thread after all.

I am sorry if I have upset or offended anyone, that's the last thing I wanted to do.

OP posts:
Original poster
LesAnimaux · 13/04/2011 20:48

....where I might be flamed would disappear.

OP posts:
BlueCat83 · 13/04/2011 20:48

It's not a case of people wanting this thread moved as they have different opinions its more because they are, hurt, vulnerable and grieving in some cases a very recent loss. At this point in their life they can not face reading these posts simple as that.

What I have noticed though is that the people who are objecting to this thread being moved are those who disagree with termination for abnormalities. No one wants it deleting just moving.

Sometimes those who consider themselves open minded can be those who's minds are most closed.

Northernlurker · 13/04/2011 20:51

Bluecat - this thread isn't about termination for abnormalities - a huge spectrum - but specifically termination for downs syndrome.

NatzCNL · 13/04/2011 20:53

LesAnimaux, unfortunately it was MNHQ who made a judgement of error posting it on AT/C, and you are entitled to ask a question, as sensative a subject as it may have been. I can understand that many people will find some offense in any post, which is why not posting this thread here was a sensible decision on your part. I just fail to see how MNHQ could have thought it was the best place for it given just how many women come here seeking comfort, reassurance and advice.

I support feedom to discuss and debate, but sensitivity isn't too much to expect (not aimed at you LesAnimaux)

MyangelAva · 13/04/2011 20:59

Absolutely northernlurker but some of the comments that have been posted have been general anti-"people termimating because their child is not perfect", which is insulting, ignorant & insensitive. Those of us who have terminated pregnancies for fatal conditions are also very aware of the impact this is having on our friends on this board who have recently & are contemplating ending a pregnancy for Downs. Those people are not necessarily up to 'defending themselves' against some on the insensitive posts and the inappropriate move of the thread to this board.

NatzCNL · 13/04/2011 21:00

Northernlurker, many of the mums that visit this forum and who end up in the support groups in AT/C, terminate for downs, and the ones who havent terminated for downs are still affected because of all the different reasons for termination, some that are not life threatening and some that are, but we are a big community and have spent months helping eachother through the heartache of termination, and opening our arms offering a safe place for those who are going through it currently.

To have this thread appear with many of the comments which we are trying to protect ourselves from thrown in our faces, it has rocked the support groups that are here. Some of the ladies using this thread are very vulnerable and need to feel they can talk openly to others who have experienced the same things.