Ignorant quetion, and not sure how to put this tactfully, but why do people not want to have a baby with DS?

[LesAnimaux]

I don't want to offend, or be flamed, but I am curious.

I've seen several threads where posters have terminated a pregnancy when they have found out their baby has Down Syndrome, and then gone on to ttc a "normal" baby.

Now, I don't personally know any one with DS or any parents of children with DS, so I genuinely don't know the difficulties they face. Is life with downs syndrome really so bad? Or is it the thought of a child growing into an adult with SN and having no one to care for them when the parents are no longer capable?

Out of all the things I worried about when pregnant, downs syndrome wasn't one of them.

[LuckyWeKeptTheCot]

I am 40 and pregnant (8 weeks) and considering all this at the moment. Have just been through a long series of bereavements and am already worried about the exhaustion of a new baby with no health probs! Will have the nuchal fold but not sure what I'd do if I were high risk of anything. I know two DS people (one child, one adult) and not sure I'd terminate or risk a miscarriage if odds are good. But I have 3 little ones already and no family support (except DH) so...really not sure how I feel at all about this.

[ghislaine]

I just can't understand Mumsnet HQ's intransigence in the face of so much distress. All I can think is that:

1. They genuinely think this is the right place for such a thread (as NancyMumsnet said "We agree that it's a good idea to move sensitive threads like the one mention[ed] in the OP into Antenatal Tests/Choices") and any distress caused to posters in A/TC is an unfortunate but inescapable side-effect
   

OR

1. They really can't think of anywhere else in Mumsnet this thread could possibly go
   

OR

1. Everyone who's been using AT/C for support has got the wrong end of the stick and needs to realise this is actually a debate and discussion forum (variation of 1).
   

MNHQ, surely there is a way out of all the pain that's been caused by the decision to put this thread here? And please, don't quote my post if you reply, I'm feeling rather singled out by the fact that the last few interventions from MNHQ quote me alone even though other people are making the same points.

[BlueCat83]

In the title it states down syndrome yes but others have commented to termination in any aspect as being wrong.

My post still stands, abnormalities includes down syndrome and I'm not sure why you felt the need to pick me up on my terminology. If you read back through the thread it moves frequently from specifically down syndrome to disability in general and on occasions abnormalities in general.

[CoteDAzur]

"hurt, vulnerable and grieving in some cases a very recent loss"

It seems to me that such people are less likely to frequent Antenatal Testing threads than Chat threads, and in that case, MNHQ might be right in thinking that this thread would cause more hurt if left in Chat.

As a general rule, and without meaning to hurt anyone further, I think that people who are so vulnerable on a topic such as Down's Syndrome should simply hide all threads that are clearly on this topic rather than demand one side of the debate to remain silent.

[Northernlurker]

Natz I totally agree with you - this section is absolutely the wrong place for this thread and I have said so here repeatedly since yesterday when it moved. However - this is a discussion we (as in teh world in general not anyone person in particular) all need to have and keep having.

[misty0]

Oh my word cotedazur have you not read anything we've said? I'm leaving.

[Northernlurker]

Because Bluecat it seemed to me that you were trying to set up this debate as being between those who are anti all terminations and those who are unreservedly pro. I don't think that's the case here and the majority of posts refer specifically to DS as the OP intended.
I apologise if that wasn't the case though.

[NatzCNL]

CoteDAzur, I understand that this is a valid discussion, however, placing this thread in an area where almost all mums with a bad NT scan turn to for advice is a wise decision?

When we were given our bad NT result, I searched through all the threads on AT/C to get support, reassurance and answers, our decision ultimately came after the CVS. However, before we got the final diagnosis and I was researching the condition our baby had I was beating myself up for thinking about what decision we should make, I hated myself and I felt that everyone hated me too. Had I have come across a thread like this whilst I was going through my most emotional and vulnerable time, it would have completely floored me.

I agree that DS shouldn't be ignored, but the fact is that many people can not cope with a child who will be born with these SN. A very painful decision needs to be made, and during this time, support is everything.

Reading a thread like this will do more harm than good to those who are searching for some support. And just because fewer peope will visit AT/C than chat (something Im not too sure of as I have never until today looked at it), why does that make it ok to post it where is will do the most damage?

Northernlurker, yes you are right, we do need to keep having the discussion with regards to DS, however placing it here is obviously a very bad idea. I know you are supporting to have it moved. I didn't mean to have a pop at you, it wasn't intended that way

[Northernlurker]

[devientenigma]

livefortoday my son is down syndrome and he is NOT what you describe.

[MyangelAva]

northernlurker there have been a number of posts that have passed judgment and refer to babies with disabilities, those that are not perfect and so on.

[LesAnimaux]

I have asked MNHQ to move this thread to "other subjects".

[BlueCat83]

CoteDAzur When I had a high NT I googled it and ended up on Mumsnet, I hadn't posted on any forums before and hadn't even heard of mumsnet! Antenatal results and choices is where I ended up and stayed.

The ladies on their are lovely kind people and certainly not terminating out of some desire for a "perfect" baby.

[NatzCNL]

We have all been asking LesAnimaux, they haven't listened to us so I dont hold out much hope for your request. But thanks for trying!

[manitz]

cotedazur are you saying that people who are hurt vulnerable and grieving because they've recently had an unexpected result from a test or have just had a termination or are coming to terms with a pregnancy that is not quite what they expected are more likely to be popping into chat rather than into AT&C?

This isn't a people who have had a termination against those who have children with downs situation. As I understand it all those who have had a pregnancy which could have resulted in a child with downs (whether they continued the pregnancy or not) are not particularly happy about the presence of this thread. AT&C is not just for those who have a termination but it is a place where people are considering their choices following antenatal tests. It is not appropriate to have this thread here because reading about people who have never been in either situation theorising about what they may do and making judgements is not really that helpful nor is it supportive.

MN could we have a new section called debate and discussion? debates are often lively and then people would understand that all points of view would be represented and judgements may be made. it could then be avoided if wished.

[NatzCNL]

I second that request Manitz

[CoteDAzur]

Manitz - I thought that "those grieving a recent loss" would indeed be unlikely to visit Antenatal Testing topic as they are no longer pregnant. However, Chat is visited by everybody. I might be wrong.

[flower11]

I agree with Natz and Manitz speaking as somone who uses antenatal choices for advice and support, it is not the right place for this thread, the Op was thoughtful and sensitive and did not post in here, just wish mnet HQ could show the same thoughtfulness.

[BlueCat83]

I think they visit the "and choices part"

[expatinscotland]

'Expat, it is good to know that the parents in the SN forum would be able to discuss that topic without getting upset. But the parents that are using this forum are in a very emotional and vulnerable state when they come to seek support and advice.'

I didn't move it.

[flower11]

cote antenatal choices is currently where there are support threads for those who have terminated for abnormalities, people seek support and guidance through the whole process, teats options and their outcomes.

[NatzCNL]

CoteDAzur am I right in assuming you do not frequent the AT/C? Because I am sure that if you did you would see a lot of support groups on there for women who are going through the screening and diagnostic stages of their pregnancy, as well as many support groups for those whose pregnancies have come to an end. There is nowhere else for these mothers (and some father) who are grieving to go. Something, which thanks to this whole event with this unwanted thread, we are hoping MNHQ will change

[manitz]

cotedazur. after my nuchal scan showed that my baby had a large nuchal fold and hydrops i did not want to chat. I came here and talked to people about that result and then googled hydrops as I did not know what it was. I really didn't want frivolous conversations at all when the baby was found via cvs to have downs syndrome people commented on the thread I had started and thoughtfully shared stories of their children and the experience they had had as well as directing me to useful websites. I chose to terminate my pregnancy and this is the only place where I know anybody who has made the choice to terminate a wanted pregnancy. I don't know anyone in rl who has also done so. It took a reasonable length of time before I felt like visiting the rest of mn.

I'm guessing you've not really looked at the section much.

[NatzCNL]

I know you didn't expat, what I was getting at is that the parents in AT/C are usually in a very vulnerable state of mind and are of course going to get upset and hurt by comments made on something that them themselves have had to go through.

[CoteDAzur]

I didn't move it here and don't object thread to be moved wherever, so not sure why you all are having a go at me. All I said was this may be why MNHQ moved it here.

What I said was re people implying that one side of the debate is offensive/hurtful. My point was that if one is so fragile on the topic of DS, possibly because they have a child with DS, they should refrain from threads on DS rather than demand that others don't talk.