Ignorant quetion, and not sure how to put this tactfully, but why do people not want to have a baby with DS?

[LesAnimaux]

I don't want to offend, or be flamed, but I am curious.

I've seen several threads where posters have terminated a pregnancy when they have found out their baby has Down Syndrome, and then gone on to ttc a "normal" baby.

Now, I don't personally know any one with DS or any parents of children with DS, so I genuinely don't know the difficulties they face. Is life with downs syndrome really so bad? Or is it the thought of a child growing into an adult with SN and having no one to care for them when the parents are no longer capable?

Out of all the things I worried about when pregnant, downs syndrome wasn't one of them.

The problem is we all want perfect children, when you get pg you dont know what will happen, there are all sorts of things that can go wrong before during and after birth. My test for ds came back high, however I refused to have an amnio and my dd is perfect !! Saying that I always said you get what your given. However there is a fear of the unknown and people with disabilities should be seen in socieity not hidden away. At the end of the day we all have a choice.

Justine, are you and others at Mumsnet HQ really not able to see how inappropriate this is? This is not the place for such a "discussion" as you term it. Whatever the original intention of this section it has clearly evolved away from that.

Absolutely ghislaine! I've been trying to think of how to put that concept properly myself. It would be clear to anyone at first glance that this forum is being used regulaly - ie: 600+ posts on 2/3 particular threads - by ladies grieving and/or coming to terms with a life changing decision.

As such it should have been managed with care and delicacy by the MN team. Clearly it has not. How sad that my and others place of refuge at such a difficult time has been disrupted.

I didnt want to post here because it brings it to the top again, but had to add my support to those who are trying to sort this out.

Agreed. This is so not the right place for this thread MNHQ. It should be returned to it's original place and anyone who doesn't wish to see it can hide it.

Had it been in this place originally I wouldn't have posted. It's insensitive.

@ghislaine

Yes, MyAngelAva, that is exactly right. I guess it has been made very clear to us that the feelings of women who terminate for abnormalities really don't count.

Justine, are you and others at Mumsnet HQ really not able to see how inappropriate this is? This is not the place for such a "discussion" as you term it. Whatever the original intention of this section it has clearly evolved away from that.

If perhaps I started a thread asking whether you would be able to turn off the life support of a fatally injured loved one, would you move it to Bereavement so that others who had been through that decision could give their opinion and educate others about the experience? It's just a discussion, after all.

No we wouldn't have moved it to Bereavement but we might have moved it to a topic called life support choices. Bear in mind we moved it because the thread was causing anguish in the chat topic. I don't think there's an answer to this that spares everyone's feelings, unfortunately.

Bu Justine, surely placing this thread where mums are having to deal with the issue being raised on this thread here and now, and those contemplating the future of their pregnancy is causing much more anguish?! The people who ARE making the decision to terminate for DS are in AT/C, not in chat.

Those whose feelings should be spared and treated with sensativity are the ones who are going through this awful time. How can that not be more important than the anguish it is causing to those who do not have the need to read every thread that has the words Down Syndrome or Termination in the title? Because any parent who is going through this right now will open every thread in AT/C that mentions this. I am almost certain that they aren't going to be going to general chat to ask for words of advice or support.

Please re-think the placemant of this thread

No we wouldn't have moved it to Bereavement but we might have moved it to a topic called life support choices. Bear in mind we moved it because the thread was causing anguish in the chat topic. I don't think there's an answer to this that spares everyone's feelings, unfortunately.

Where exactly was this thread originally?

If it was not in a place where others were seeking support for having made this terrible decision then surely that place is still more fitting than this?

Also what about woman who wish to make a decision but after reading this feel shamed into not making a particular decision? Surely woman facing this choice should be allowed to air their feelings without fear of being judged and allowed the support they so desperately need. It's ok to say hide the thread, but you can't hide it till you've seen it and sometimes when your in a dark place this is just something else to beat yourself with.

No we wouldn't have moved it to Bereavement but we might have moved it to a topic called life support choices Surely anyone facing a decision like this needs support, patience and understanding.....NOT a moral debate with such strong opinions either way? When you have strong opinions for both sides as you do on this thread then woman making these choices simply can not win can they? Is that fair?

Surely it would cause less angst in chat than here

ANT&C has been my 'home' while I was living the nightmare of a 1:3 and everyone has been supportive and lovely and I was shocked to see this thread had moved here - its really out of sync with the whole 'ethos' of this board which is unfailingly supportive and populated by people who have also lived the nightmare, rather than, frankly, people who have never had to comtemplate the hideous decisions we have and are mostly therefore talking out of their arses.

I have no problem with people debating any issue, but it is very insensitive to put in here IMO.

Agree BlueCat83 and FannyLogan, cant understand how MNHQ dont understand why this is causing much more upset placing it in AT/C!

computermouse. i have found that when people come on this board facing a result thrown up by an antenatal test, those that post on the board rarely offer their reasons or personal point of view on why they handled it as they did. Usually they give factual advice eg if someone wants to know what happens during a termination or how they dealt with grief in the early days, or conversely what life is like living with a baby with x. Usually posters are led by what is asked. it is not ime normally used as a place to debate the rights and wrongs of such issues or to influence decisions. That might have been the purpose of the area when set up but it's not how it is used.

Computermouse, AT/C is used as a support forum, not a debate forum. I agree that a discussion on all choices is valid, but AT/C is not the place for this thread or discussion.

computermouse The person who started this thread isn't asking for advice because they have found themselves in a position which means they have to make a choice. They are not asking for advice, they are asking a more general question for their own curiosity. People who use this section are here because they need advice, they are faced with having to make a choice and are looking for empathy from others who have been there.

This poster is not in this position. He has no antenatal results and no choices to make so then why should it be under antenatal results and choices?

I am with those who think that a place called 'antenatal tests/choices' is the place to discuss antenatal test and choices, which is exactly what is being done.

The title of the thread explains very well what it is about, anyone who clicks on it should have a good idea of what the discussion will be about. More so here than elsewhere, in fact, as 'DS' can mean a number of things but its location in test/choices makes it clear which kind of DS we are discussing.

Of course, the people who asked for this thread to be put here are obviously not posting, because the reason they asked for it to be moved was so that they wouldn't see it, because it upset them.

Many of the people who have commented on this thread have said the age old line 'I would never....', they are discussing a fictional decision, nothing from actual experience which is what people who come to AT/C come for, peoples actual experiences. Not a discussion of 'what would you do' or 'why do people to this'.

There are some who have chose not to terminate and those who have DS children, but the whole point of this thread being started was not to ask for experiences or support, but to start a debate on the issue of terminating for Downs.

I am not saying people shouldn't be entitled to their own opinions, but this thread would be better placed elsewhere away from the ones who are suffering with the reality of having to make that decision.

I retract that first statement, there are actual experiences of choices to and not to terminate, however many who are also not from actual experience

I have held off commenting on this thread, though have read most of it, as I didnt want to contribute and hoped it would disappear down the board. I have to say though at this point I also urge MNHQ to relocate this upsetting and inappropriate thread. If the rationale for moving it from general Chat is that it was upsetting and causing anguish for some, the decision to move it to AT/C where it is obviously hugely upsetting for most, cannot be justified. Yes there is a place for ethical debate and discussion but it is not here. People use AT/C not for ethical debate but for advice, support and empathy at what is easily for most people, the most difficult, worrying and often devastating time of their lives. Perhaps, as has been stated, AT/C in it's infancy was expected to be an area for such debates. However, as Ghislaine rightly points out, it has truly evolved beyond this. Please look at the reality of this forum and what it is used for, not what you think it might or should be used for.

I'm sure you are keen to avoid causing unnnecessary distress to MN users and I think the decision to move this thread was not done out of a complete lack of regard for the experiences of people using AT/C. I do however think it has been a naive and ill considered decision and therefore you must admit, a mistake. The right thing to do now is to move it and leave those of us who hugely value this area of MN to come to terms with the choices we have made, without having to read damaging posts at a time when many of us are very vulnerable.

This thread should be placed elsewhere, not in the face of those who are having to go through this experience right now. Feel free to have this discussion, but putting it where it could cause a great deal of upset to very vulnerable people is not a wise decision. That is my argument, not who can and cannot post.

Imagine you are in a hideously painful and traumatic situation, for example being told that your precious longed for baby who you can feel moving inside you and who you have hopes and dreams for, may have a very serious condition, possibly incompatable with life, life limiting, or one which will potentially make their life painful, short or difficult.

You have to decide whether to terminate this preganancy or bring a baby into the world with the above problems. A no win situation either way.

You are in a nice cosy room, having a chat with a group of people who have been through this or are going through this. They understand you and where you are coming from. You are supported and not judged.

Suddenly 50 people come crashing through the doors who have no idea about the reality of being faced by these sort of choices saying

'Well I would terminate - its selfish not to'
'I wouldn't how could you kill your baby?'

and 200 other variations on the above.

It's very upsetting to the people here and really very insensitive that the thread was actually put here by MNHQ 'because it was upsetting other posters on chat'. What about us??

I can understand their reason for wanting it moved, but to move it to this area was not a wise decision

But we are all (as in those of us in ANT&C) potentially parents of children with SN or Down's so surely that doesn't solve the problem...?