Assets but no cash to pay for care - experiences and handhold

[Throwaway380]

Can already think of a billion ways I could have made this easier with hindsight, so please be gentle.

My Mum has got a very complex degenerative neurological disease. Has been cared for at home but my Dad can no longer cope and is in an absolute mess.

We applied for CHC but were deemed ineligible even though every care home I’ve spoken to is astounded at this. We will appeal or reapply but that obviously takes time.

My Mum had about 30k in savings but other than that her one asset is a buy-to-let house she and my Dad co own. Obviously selling this will take a while as need to give notice to current tenants etc.

Was told by the social worker that we could get a Deferred Payment Application on the buy to let, but then told by the council’s finance team they would not do this.

We had a specialist care home place lined up for Thursday but as we don’t now how the proof of financing it they have cancelled this, I’d already arranged for her current drop in carers to stop as of 10am Thursday so currently in a worse position than we were before. Am hoping her current care company can come back.

We have told by multiple nursing homes she is too complex and they can’t meet her needs and her current care company specially train people so if we get a random other company they’re not going to be able to provide that same level of care immediately whatever.

Feel like I’ve utterly messed up and we’re going to have to look at equity release. But equally we will need to sell and my Dad is not going to have that much to live on once the income from the letting goes, and don’t want to go into negative equity on that property and seems to not be advised to do it for short term (whilst we end the tenancy and market the house) in any case.

Have seriously been told by two different people at the council to just call an ambulance or go to A&E if it’s ‘an emergency’. She does not need to be in hospital, and it would really distress her (she’s totally cogent although extremely physically limited).

I honestly can’t believe they can leave people like this, literally nothing on the deferred payment form about it not being suitable for second properties, wasted hours filling it in.

Restarting the search for a nursing home tomorrow but going to face same issues of how complex the needs are. And we’re going to be in a mess with the money in 10 weeks or so anyway, and that’s if we spend her last penny.

Oh yes the financial assessment form was all ready to go, as was the deferred payment application. I’ve spent hours on them both, literally, I was just waiting on the two valuations of the rental house which are happening this week. Have asked for valuations for tenants in situ and selling with vacant possession. I need to double check whether can put it on the market simultaneously with notice or if it has to wait until tenants are out under new law.

Stick with it, you’ll get there. At the beginning it’s a minefield trying to work out parents health and care situation, but it will work out, I just hope your dad is managing in the process 💐

If your mum goes to hospital, and on her release she's allowed to restart the intermediate care of 6 weeks back into a care home. There's no limit how many times that happens btw, it's after each stay.

Make sure your dad's assets are protected, half the buy to let of course is his and may give him some funds to live on. What a sorry state of affairs it all is in this country.

We've been in a very similar position. Ddad had a sudden stroke and lost all mobility. He went from being completely able to needing a nursing home. Modest savings and main home was disregarded as it is also Dm's home(who is fit and well )

They also had a buy to let but thankfully DM had just enough inheritance from DGM dying that she was able to buy Dd out of his half of the buy to let property. Would that work? It gave my parents enough money for DD to get in a nursing home and when the money did (recently) run out, the council took over. So DM still has her home and has the income from the but to let which is now solely in her name. She did lose the inheritance money but it was the best solution to get DD the care he needed, and has left my DM secure.

I hope you get a solution, op. It's such an emotional and stressful time, wishing you all the best and look after yourself.

That's a total cop out and very distressing for the vulnerable person sitting in A and E for hours while they decide they can't help.

Sorry came on to also say (but I see a PP has mentioned it), Mum's nursing home will set up their own deferred payment scheme. It is worth asking.

And - at £3k per week and complex care needs have you looked at whether your Mjm is eligible for funded nursing care? Your GP should be able to advise.

Unfortunately you are stuck in the no mans land that exists between health and social care (not even counting the self funding situation) so they will try to pass you from pillar to post - you need to be dogged. FNC won't cover all costs, but if your Mum has health care needs due to the neurological condition that is deteriorating - they may cover part of it.

Honestly this could be a solution, my Dad may be getting a payout as part of launching starting his pension. How quickly did the paperwork get sorted though? As it will obviously take time to release that money, then legal buy out documents. And that’s what the council is not giving us.

My Mum’s only wish is to not go back to hospital if at all possible, honestly think it’s barbaric as essentially a bargaining chip to make it the NHS’s problem.

Everyone seems to think we should get FNC but again not been properly assessed as yet. It’s on the list.

Are you or another family member able to raise a mortgage to buy your mums share of the buy to let, then use the income from the rent to pay the mortgage?

I agree with your Mum avoiding hospital. But what on earth are you supposed to do. It's a bloody nightmare.

Your mother's care is a health problem not a local authority problem. A friend of mine whose mother had Parkinson's with Lewy Body Dementia had to fight it all the way to the door of a court to get the NHS to take on its responsibilities.

I'm sorry this is so hard when it's bad enough seeing your mum so ill. I think you need some help to fight this from a lawyer who specialises in care costs.

This might work actually. I’ll look into it

The trouble is it’s more money gone to go down the lawyer route. Also my Dad is just a mess, and he would usually be the first to fight things and the fact he’s not got it in him is a big red flag.

The CHC assessor is honestly now one of the only people I’d be tempted to kick if I saw him out and about. Just evil job. He didn’t want to give my Mum the money from the off.

Bless you, this is so hard.

I would suggest you see a lawyer yourself once, because if you have a slam dunk case the NHS would have to reimburse your costs. They will also possibly give in when they receive a letter from a properly knowledgeable solicitor.

It is shameful how you are being treated 😢

Do you or your dad have access to legal cover via home insurance?

Also, is it possible to take out a loan that’s either secured against the house or the rental property? I’m just thinking that might be a quicker and easier option than an equity release Mortgage.

Is the investment property owned outright?

It’s the way loads of people are treated. But the OP’s family has money and parents didn’t invest in a pension. They won’t take pension investments, but they will take assets like a buy to let. It’s something for older people to think about. Never go without a pension in favour of a buy to let.

Slightly separate issue, but with the A&E thing

I don’t know what sort of situation you’re imagining, but even care homes will resort to A&E if something A&E worthy has happened. There isn’t usually an alternative?

Can you go to the bank and remortgage the BTL? On the grounds it will be sold asap?
Definitely challenge the CHC funding. In my experience they almost always refuse it first time. Make sure you have all the evidence as detailed as possible.
How much funds do your parents have available immediately? I would ask the nursing home whether they would take her for two weeks respite initially whilst you get all the ducks in line.

Actually my Dad did invest in a pension, but because he was self employed the tax grab Gordon Brown enacted under New Labour for private pensions meant he had to start again.

NB I’m a Labour voter so have no skin in this game, but things can change quickly under government policy.

There’s nothing A&E worthy happening, she has high care needs but is stable. The social worker literally said if we can’t care for her at home to call 999. It’s a mad use of resources, they just want to push the issue back to the NHS.

Plenty of care homes will do a deferred payment arrangement on the buy to let, particularly if you can show you’ve given notice to the tenants before the cash runs out. They may need to put a charge on it while the sale is going through.

I realise her complex needs already limit the pool of available homes, but many many care homes will do this, they wouldn’t get privately funded residents if they didn’t.

Yes the trouble is we’ve widened and widened our search and we’re already 40 minutes away from home. The further away Mum is from all her friends and family the worse it is for her mental health. She’s still with us mentally, just trapped in her body. In terms of how many care homes I’ve tried we must be heading to 20.

I’ll ask about legal cover!