Am I right that most elderly people must self-fund care if they have assets?

[Coffeeisnotmycupoftea]

People telling me time and again that my mum could get care home fees paid for by the government and I am certain they are wrong.

Mum is in the advancing stages of Alzheimer's having suffered now for 8 years. Between my father, my sister and I we have been caring for her ourselves. We now have a team of carers coming in 3 times a day as we are trying are best to keep her at home, for as long as possible.

We really don't want to put mum into a home if we can help it even though it is becoming a struggle (more for dad as he feels he has no life). This is not because of the fear of losing money as it's costing over £1k per week for the home carers as it is. It's more that we can keep an eye on her care at home and have yet to find a home we like the look of (have been viewing quite a few of late) but the truth is that mum will more than likely need to go into a care home within the next 6 months to a year as her care needs progress.

My parents have assets. I have looked into everything for them and have had SS round to do assessments etc and each and every time we are told care would need to be paid for in full by my parents (with AA and pensions included) because they have well over the £23,250 threshold. My parents FA has also given this information to us. We are fine with this and fully aware if you have any assets you need to pay for your care.

However, so many people we know tell us that mum should and would qualify for 'free' care. They seem to believe that continuing healthcare is really easy to get and I keep hearing their stories that their mum or dad are getting getting care home fees paid for free despite them owning property or having lots of savings etc. My sister is now pushing for us to find out more because someone she works for is telling her we absolutely must not pay for care home fees as we can get it paid for (??).

I am fed up telling them that isn't the case for a large percentage of people and most will have to fund their own care fees whether that is at home care or in a care facility.

I am right, aren't I? That most people with substantial savings and/or a home of their own will need to fund their own care? (I understand a house can not be sold whilst a spouse is living there but if they die the house will need to be sold to pay for the fees?)

TBH it's those who were in poorly paid jobs who are most likely to end up funded by the state. The cleaners, carers, retail workers etc. not those who earned a good salary and pissed it away.

Also dp mother lived on her own in an apartment
she went into care when family couldnt cope any
longer. She had Alzheimer's, she was funded until her apartment was sold. Then she had to pay herself. She then later also hit continued care until she passed.
West Cheshire

Your mother should be assessed financially on her own assets and income, not joint assets. If you are really stuck look up the society of later life advisers ( SOLLA)
They will have advisers in your area who can help you sort out what your mother's financial responsibilities are in this instance.

Unless your Kim qualifies for CHC funding (and it’s worth fighting for) then her assets will be used to funded her care until she falls below the threshold of around 23500

Continuing Health Care.

The markers for the CHC assessment are on the gov website. The DST document gives the most detail. It's worth looking into, a fair few people with dementia do get it. It sounds like your mum wouldn't be at the threshold yet if she can be safely cared for at home without medical staff. However, if her cognition deteriorated to the point she was doing really dangerous things and she started displaying challenging behaviours she may get it. It does need to be severe, one example I can think of where CHC was granted was someone who needed 2:1 support because he was assaulting others with no warning sign of escalation and he had zero awareness of risk, he would just walk into a busy road, try and drink boiling water etc.

Yes ... the main info is on gov website. The basic tool shows you the sort of criteria they use so you can get some idea of whether someone qualifies. But really worth talking to Beacon because they will give you free advice on the best way to proceed to stand the best chance of getting it. www.beaconchc.co.uk I would not have got it for my late OH without their help.

I could have written this but my mum did get funding. She was in a nursing home for almost 8 years and it was paid for. She died late 2023. I wonder what was so different about her situation?

Can I ask how it works if family do not have immediate access to a parents cash? What if it takes time to sort out selling assets? If the family do not have access to a few thousand a month how does it work?

You’re correct, their home won’t need to be sold now to cover the costs but it will need to be sold in the future to cover the costs .
The threshold is low right now .
When my mum was in a care home she was self funding but as soon as her assets depleted to a certain level ( I’d sold her house ) the local council part paid .
So when she passed away there was very little left in her bank and no other assets .
That is sad but also is ok because the home looked after her well for her last years .

The council will normally pay as a type of loan then recoup from the proceeds of the house

Mum has been assessed for her needs, she doesn't need nursing home care just dementia care in a care home.

This is a similar scenario to my parents and my neighbour, all of a similar age. My parents saved all their money and neighbours lived it up throughout their retirement buying a new car every few years and lots of holidays etc. They also helped their children out a lot financially.

Mum now has advanced dementia and neighbour had a massive stroke 18 months ago. The only difference is that we can pick and choose mum's care where neighbour has to have the LA funded care package and that means whilst mum has the exact same carers every week that we have all been able to build a lovely relationship with my neighbour has a different carer every day/week and they call at all times of the day and night. There is little consistency in the care.

If they both need a care home we can go view all the local ones to us and make a choice based on what we believe to be the right home for mum but neighbour will have to go in whichever home the LA will deem suitable and affordable to them. There are very few choices if you have no private funds.

Continuing healthcare is almost impossible to get! My father was on end of life care, totally bedridden, totally incontinent, unable to feed himself or even hold cutlery or a drink, unable to swallow tablets and had rapid onset dementia (20weeks) leaving him not knowing me or my mum and they said because he was stuck in bed and was compliant ( I kept telling him to be good and do as he was told), he qualified for nothing! His RAF training meant he knew to follow instructions and his love for me made him do what I asked. He died 4 weeks later.
The assessment for continuing healthcare is a joke and even the care home were shocked he did not qualify. As I left I made a point of telling him to give them hell but he was too much of a gentleman to be a nuisance to anyone!

Most elderly people paid taxes all their working days. It's awful they are charged for it.

You are correct. However if your father is still alive ask him to consult his lawyer and ask them about a life interest trust in his will. It puts his one half share in trust for your mum on his death and ring fences at least one half share of the house for you and your sister from care home fees. This is not a lifetime asset protection trust (run far away from these things!) but it is at least a half way house to preserve some cash from being swallowed entirely by care home fees. It also doesn't fall foul of the CRAG rules on care home fees. Ps if you are in Scotland, you can and should get an element of free care but it is no where the £1k a week you are currently paying. Either way while your dad is in the house the value of the house should be disregarded for care home fees financing. Also the council will look at taking half of what is in joint bank accounts so if your dad gets more income than your mum, consider redirecting his income into a dole account in his name. Long story short - consult an estate planning/private client solicitor to make sure you are claiming what you should be and that your father's assets are protected. Look up the Society of Trust and Estates Practitioners for a specialist solicitor local to you

CHC is only for if you have medical needs. Any dementia does not count as medical, unfortunately. My mum has vascular dementia but unfortunately she has no other medical problems. Yes, it is unfortunate, as I would rather she had a huge heart attack rather than years of slow decline, which i am dreading.
I am now in the position of having to sell her property to pay for her care home. I find it annoying because she has paid tax all her life, went back to work full time when I was 6 weeks old, and paid off her mortgage as a single mother. But, that's the way it is. The property funds will go on care fees and at least she will be safe and looked after.

For anybody who is thinking about how their elderly patients possible.mursing home care will be funded.

And they haven't made a Will and
If they have assets and own their own home

Get in touch with a Solicitor and talk about Trusts, Minimising Inheritance Tax and Tenants in Common.

Lots of Smoke and Mirrors and crafty manoeuvres around these type of legal shaninghams.
How to avoid Deprivation of Assets without really trying?

Sorry to hear about your Mother's poor health. You sound very caring, and you are certainly doing the best you can for her.

Best Wishes
🙏🫰
X

There is a lot of incorrect information in this thread.

changing the house to tenants in common etc can be seen as a depravation of assets and can still be used to pay towards care fees if it has been deemed to be doing so.

If the money has run out, the LA don’t pay it all, the persons pension, any income, gets used first less around £30pw for toiletries etc but everything else gets used first, then the local authority pays the remainder up to their weekly rate.

I’ve heard of care homes stating they will keep someone there when the money runs out but if they’ve had a change of management etc they can change their mind and decide they can’t take the LA rate. The care act 2014 states a local authority has a duty to meet the persons care and support needs but it doesn’t state it has to be in the same home and the LA has a responsibility to use funds wisely so could move the person to somewhere locally that will accept the rate. There is a set rate each financial year. If they’ve original care home wont accept the LA rate, and have found another local home that will, the family can choose to pay a third party top up which is the difference between the LA rate and what the care home are asking. This cannot be used from the service users money though, only family or friends.

CHC - is difficult to get. How I explain it is that social care is residential and nursing. If someone’s care and support is more than can be met at those, for example if their needs would be best met in a hospital setting, they may get CHC. Most care and support can be met in res or nursing. Look up DST - decision support tool, for the domains that are used for the CHC funding. It takes into account breathing, loss of consciousness etc.
fast track CHC is usually when someone is end of life and needs health assistance asap.

That would be different funding under the mental health act, not chc, depending on the section.
Op I would agree with pp, contact age uk or similar for expert advice, there is also a lot of info on their website. The chc domains you can find online and rhe scoring system - this is for the checklist.

Yes this. Probably when people are talking about one parent not paying for care it is this scenario they are referring to, not accessing CHC.

it is egregious that order of death determines if a house is taken into account for the calculation of costs but it is so. In theory it would be possible to put a charge on 50% of a property pending the death of both parents but it doesn’t work like that. So, couple A, mum needs care first, dies and then dad dies without needing care in a home, house intact. Couple b mum dies without needing care, dad survives and needs care, the house is taken. Yes, there are practicalities like how much the LA will pay, restriction of choice etc for couple A but essentially how much of an estate is left depends on order of death.

this is why couples split houses into tenants in common. It doesn’t avoid fees, it minimises them. It’s is not deprivation of assets when it is not your asset to begin with. You are not saying you won’t pay for your own care, you are saying you won’t pay for someone else’s. People get outraged about this as they think about couples in terms of husband and wife but imagine the scenario if the home owners are brother/sister, friends or parent and child and the assumption of responsibility for the other based on home ownership suddenly doesn’t seem as rational.

I would suggest you check into this in more detail. You mum needs a 'care needs' assessment and a 'financial assessment' from your local authority.
But based on my experience....
As your mum is being cared for at home, property value would be excluded from any financial assessment (unless she has other properties). She would be required to cover full costs to the point her savings reach the £23,250 thresh-hold at which point your local authority would step in.
If she went into full time care then the property may be included in the assessment. It could be excluded if a spouse or partner still live in the property in which case they may put a DPA in place and look to recover monies against the property value if the property were sold or after your dad passes - They can't force you to sell.
The only time I'm aware that full fees are covered by the council would be if your mother is deemed end of life.
You should also look into carers allowance if you haven't already done so - not worth much but every little helps.
My father had advanced Alzheimers, and was cared for at home before having to go into hospital where he was deemed EOL. He was subsequently moved to a care home costs fully covered after deduction of pensions (probably because his hospital bed wasn't freed up fast enough). They subsequently took him off of EOL at which point a care needs assessment was and financial assessment were done (it took time for the FA to be completed). We ended up picking up full costs until he was again put on EOL and the council stepped.
Those claiming to get care home fees paid for despite owning lots of assets / cash, either the person being cared for is EOL, or the council hasn't got round to completing a Financial Assessment (most likely the later). If they have and have been untruthful in declaring assets then that potentially opens them up to fraud claims. The council can still come after the estate/family for recovery of funds even if assets have been sold, but this would be a civil matter not criminal.

Try to find a nursing home that provides specialist dementia care. As your mother has other medical needs, she will probably qualify for Funded Nursing Care. I can't remember how much it is, but it's around £250 per week and is paid to the Home, but deducted from the fees. My late father qualified for this as he had prostate cancer which required nursing supervision. Unfortunately he died before all the paperwork went through. Your mother may qualify with her heart condition.

The right home is so important. You need to get your mother on the waiting lists. My father spent a couple of months in a care home which proved detrimental before his name came up at the nursing home I moved him to. He had been on their list for six months.

Look for a home with a CQC outstanding rating. I also found lottie.org a useful Web resource. If you are in the East of England, I can DM you the name of the place my father was in. I highly recommend it, and whilst it wasn't cheap, the difference in care he received whilst there compared to the previous place was astonishing. It was worth every single penny.

My parents changed their house over to tenants in common after mum's diagnosis. My dad's half has been put into a trust as he has no diagnosis of any health issues. However, because mum had already been diagnosed with Alzheimer's the year before her half can not be put into any trusts so if she goes into a care home, due to any potential deprivation of assets situation. If she is in care and her savings are used up we will need to pay the final bill, to the LA from the eventual sale of my parents home, from her half of the sale and once my father has passed away.

That's how our solicitor has explained it to us.

We did get mum assessed but as her breast cancer is under control with medication and she has a pacemaker for her heart issues they said she would most likely not qualify.

I should add that we have viewed and are currently viewing many care homes locally but none of them believe she needs a nursing home (GP thinks this too).

We are very lucky that mum has never been hard work or aggressive in the 8 years she has had this disease, if anything she has become more passive and easy going. She just sits all day, eating, drinking and soiling herself 😞