Am I right that most elderly people must self-fund care if they have assets?

[Coffeeisnotmycupoftea]

People telling me time and again that my mum could get care home fees paid for by the government and I am certain they are wrong.

Mum is in the advancing stages of Alzheimer's having suffered now for 8 years. Between my father, my sister and I we have been caring for her ourselves. We now have a team of carers coming in 3 times a day as we are trying are best to keep her at home, for as long as possible.

We really don't want to put mum into a home if we can help it even though it is becoming a struggle (more for dad as he feels he has no life). This is not because of the fear of losing money as it's costing over £1k per week for the home carers as it is. It's more that we can keep an eye on her care at home and have yet to find a home we like the look of (have been viewing quite a few of late) but the truth is that mum will more than likely need to go into a care home within the next 6 months to a year as her care needs progress.

My parents have assets. I have looked into everything for them and have had SS round to do assessments etc and each and every time we are told care would need to be paid for in full by my parents (with AA and pensions included) because they have well over the £23,250 threshold. My parents FA has also given this information to us. We are fine with this and fully aware if you have any assets you need to pay for your care.

However, so many people we know tell us that mum should and would qualify for 'free' care. They seem to believe that continuing healthcare is really easy to get and I keep hearing their stories that their mum or dad are getting getting care home fees paid for free despite them owning property or having lots of savings etc. My sister is now pushing for us to find out more because someone she works for is telling her we absolutely must not pay for care home fees as we can get it paid for (??).

I am fed up telling them that isn't the case for a large percentage of people and most will have to fund their own care fees whether that is at home care or in a care facility.

I am right, aren't I? That most people with substantial savings and/or a home of their own will need to fund their own care? (I understand a house can not be sold whilst a spouse is living there but if they die the house will need to be sold to pay for the fees?)

My MIL was held under a MH section. When they moved her from the MH unit to the dementia wing of the nursing home her care was paid for - still under Section.

Most of the care homes we have visited say they need proof of at least 2 years of funds and only one said they would never move a resident if the money runs out, the rest were rather vague when I asked that question.

I honestly think it depends regionally and perhaps whether you choose to go private to get the supporting evidence written more sympathetically and properly for your mum.

I don't mean to sound flippant but it's a little like PIP where if you know how to fill out the forms (and have a fluctuating condition - thats why you must fill the forms out as if its the worst day) and have supporting evidence from a sympathetic gp/nurse/physio you are more likely to get CHC.

My mum and sister are district nurses in the midlands.. when FIL had a catastrophic brain bleed stroke and was in hosp then a care home they were very knowledgeable about how to explain his conditions/effects.

The assessor we had who came out to the care home was not super gaslight-y like I've read can be the case so probably very lucky there too. The care home also didn't seem too bothered about him applying - I've heard they don't like chc as they get less money? Or the funded nursing care element most people get in a home goes straight to them? But I'm very uninformed on that

From everything I have heard it appears to be a very stressful thing to put yourself through, not sure I want to tbh. If my sister insists others are telling her mum would get it I will leave it to her to do. I have done enough over the last 8 years!

My mil was self funding until we were told by the hospital she was pallative- then she was discharged back to the care home. we applied for chc fast track (the process is different), she lived for another 5 months and her care was funded. Its so difficult was when you are dealing with that decline and wouldnt have thought about applying but my fil had it so we knew it was possible.

The companies that 'help' you apply for the Continuing health care funding, charge thousands and in most cases you will be wasting your money, as the 'not fit for purpose' NHS is stellar at finding ways to deny any claim.
So yes you are right, you have to use your own assets first in most cases with the exception of the house a spouse is living in. Quite right too I suppose. Why shouldn't you pay for your own care given that people live into their nineties now?

I’m a nurse. There’s CHC funding but also fast track funding. We as nurses can do a CHC checklist and if they score positive then we will refer to the CHC team who will do further assessments. We don’t have anything to do with this after that.
A fast track is something us as nurses can complete and usually funding starts the same or next day. This is for people deemed end of life, specifically last 3 months of life. This will get reviewed every 3 months and can be taken away if no longer deemed end of life whereas continuing health care is long term. Fasttrack is particularly helpful if your trying to get your relative carers or a placement as having a fasttrack means we can get this in place quickly as funding is in place. If a person already has carers or in a care home then the only changes are who is funding it. To qualify for a fasttrack I would be looking at how responsive they was, if they was able to communicate, eat and drink, mobility, breathing patterns, if they needed any symptom management, rapid deterioration. They don’t need to have a palliative diagnosis they could just be elderly but entering end stages of life.

We were basically told that MIL was too nice to qualify for CHC . If her behaviour was challenging, with more unpredictable support needs, she would have qualified.

Often people are assessed after finding themselves in hospital due to a fall, UTI etc. However in your situation you can ring social services at the local authority and ask for an assessment, you explain you can no longer meet your Mums needs and even with a package of care x3 daily you cannot maintain her safety.

They will then come out and do an assessment on your Mum, financials and the current circumstances and inform you of what your entitled to. With my grandma she was living with my parents but it became unmanageable as she had dementia, she went into respite for x2 weeks and was re-assessed and the home said she needed 24 hour care. She did have over the threshold of savings/pension etc but not by much, once that ran out she was then funded. I believe this is how it works. They cannot sell the house whilst your Father is alive and they cannot regain the money once both have passed away.

I must admit im suprised at the amount of people on here whos family have been refused, it wasn’t a nice process for us but certainly wasn’t a nightmare to gain the funding.

You will not get CHC funding for dementia or Alzheimer’s unless her behavioural is so violent and aggressive that she gets sectioned. If she gets sectioned you’ll get her care home paid for.

Because you father lives at home they can’t take the house to pay for her care, but they will take half of the other joint assets/cash/savings she shares with your father. Until her share reduces to £23,250. Then they will pay SOME, not all. They’ll only paid all when her savings share gets to £14,000.

My dad's care was to be funded by continuing health care. The hospital and social services sorted it all out on an expedited basis as he was considered terminally ill/end of life. As it was, he died the day after he came home from hospital so kind of didn't need it. But when he was previously to have been discharged it would have been self funded but his needs changed before they got as far as discharging him

You are right

I'm not sure that any insurance company would offer it - how could they make a profit?

So actually your mum only has just over a year/18 months worth of care home fees (plus obviously any income she has). After that then she will indeed be eligible for LA funding.

Anything in your dad's name cannot be touched and the house cannot be touched.

The same way insurers always make a profit: charge more in premiums than they pay out in fees.

@MissCharlotteLutterell Yeah, I guess they would bet on a proportion of people dying before they needed care.

This is where we struggle to get the correct advice.

If mum is still in care after her savings run out I know the LA will more than likely cover the cost but once dad has passed the final bill will be taken from the sale of their home?

You would be entitled to carers allowance, which isnt a great deal but better than nothing. I don't think that is means tested at all.
We paid for care for 8 years, it was a big bill at £1500 a week but the care they had was good. They’d not have coped at home at all by then, and it would have tipped me over the edge in a few months!

They would make a profit. Premiums would be high. They would also hope people die before needing care - most people never need permanent nursing homes.

Just like the council, they would also have a high bar for if care needs to be provided at all. They'd have an AI bot guarding access... "sorry, under the terms and conditions, you do not qualify to have your care needs met". Probably have to pay for an assessment of need ... etc.
Insurance would not cover "I want", or "mum needs".

Echoing what everyone else has said that CHC is hard to get but wanted to check are you already getting AA at the higher rate for your mum? I was horrified that there is what I would describe as a cooling off period of six months before higher AA is paid once awarded. I am royally kicking off at various MPs about how Dementia really needs to be an exception to this - the trend is only downwards, my mum did not improve and suddenly not qualify in that six month period.

You will often see on this board “needs not wants” used. What your dad wants is not what you need - if your health and wellbeing is being put at risk caring for your mum then you really do need to step back and withdraw support. It’s horrible to do and you have to sit and watch the crisis point get ever closer but sometimes it is the only way to get a parent out of an unsustainable care arrangement with relatives and into a home where they can get the support they need.

PIL on the advice on their solicitor changed their home ownership from joint tenants to tenants in common, half share each, so that if only one of them needs care, it’s only half the house value that will go to pay for it. I think a lot of people are not aware of the difference between ownership of a house as joint tenants and as tenants in common.

No because the house would belong to your father at this point and the costs only relate to your mother’s care. Not his. They can’t come for the house unless your father himself needs care at some point and needs to sell the house to fund a care home place for himself

Just don’t discuss the funding with these busybodies! You don’t have to keep trying to convince them -don’t waste the effort.

No, the house is fully outside of the equation for the first spouse to go into care. No charge is put on the house relating to your mum's care.

If your dad died whilst your mum was in case then the whole house would belong to your mum if they hold it as joint tenants and so would then be sold to pay for her care from that point onwards. If they hold as tenants in common then your dad could leave his half of the house to his DC in his will and your mum would own half. The house would then have to be sold to release your mum's half of the money to fund her care from that point onwards.

If your mum died first then the whole house would belong to your dad if held as joint tenants. No charge exists on the house. If they held as joint tenants then it would depend on who she had left her half to under the will but still no charge on it because your dad was living in it.

If your dad also goes into care then the house is sold to pay for both of their care fees since there is no longer a spouse living there and keeping it out of the equation.

If your dad was to downsize to release cash then your mum would suddenly have cash back in the equation so this would be a bad move whilst she is in care. Its only a physical house that attracts protection.i

My parents have the same set up, on advice of their solicitor too.