Should more people prepare for old age?

[Glasscabinet]

Bear with me on this one.

Off the back of two thoughts: PIL have received a sizeable inheritance and have asked us to have a think of what we’d like as they’d like to pay for something for us (car/something for our house/holiday). I won’t side this thread by they’ll be hidden strings involved so we’ve declined the offer three times.

But joking aside, what I’d really like them to spend the money on is planning for their old age. They’re both mid 70s, okayish health (FIL has had cancer twice in the last decade) but neither have had a particularly healthy lifestyle which is starting to show. Supposedly nobody in FIL’s side has reached 80; I doubt FIL will either. But they still manage two long haul holidays a year (for longer periods as they take them slower these days).

I can preempt that we’ll get the call within the next five years that FIL has died and MIL cannot cope alone in her four-bed-house. She hates her own company and relies on FIL for everything (no online shopping/cannot put fuel in the car/very much panics in any situation/problem…) The house has a downstairs toilet but no shower, not wheelchair friendly, huge garden and the area isn’t the safest- doubtful MIL would feel comfortable going to the shops in a scooter etc. The house is also four bedrooms of clutter.

Also reading another thread of when elderly family need to move it’s too late. Basically you’ve got to be pretty capable of doing a big move and life can change in an instant.

We’ve got a young family and I doubt it’s ’complete’. I feel almost obliged to spell it out to them that they can’t be relying on us as it’s just not feasible. MIL makes a lot of comments that we need to move closer as they want to help us with childcare. I feel myself biting my tongue that they need to sort out their arrangements first.

The house has a downstairs toilet but no shower, not wheelchair friendly, huge garden and the area isn’t the safest

Is this not most houses though op? In an ideal world all houses would be bungalows and people could grow old in them easier and people’s gardens would be manageable and doors etc would be wider.

You don't really want loads of healthy 60yos moving into 'disabled friendly' accommodation, as then they are blocking it for the 80+ people (and the younger disabled people).

@Bumpitybumper

The amount of people that bury their heads in the sand and think it won't happen to them is crazy and I can only assume that it's all wrapped up with an inability for people in general to accept their decline and ultimately their mortality.

Great post and particularly this comment. Burying heads in the sand is exactly the issue. Far too many people just won't believe it can happen to them, until it does, and then it's usually too late for them to be able to make the changes needed.

I see it with clients with my work (accountancy!). "Head in the sand" is exactly the case with so many. Huge numbers won't even make a will, let alone start planning for retirement and eventual decline. They just plod on assuming it won't happen to them. Then it does and it's hell on roller-skates as sorting their affairs out becomes urgent when they get a serious health diagnosis, and they're juggling running a business, making a will, setting up POAs, consolidating pensions/investments, selling a business/home, at the same time as multiple hospital/doctor appointments, etc. Fair enough if that happens in your middle age when it's not expected, but people in their 60s and 70s really should have thought about it and planned for it, especially if they're still running a business, got a home far too big for their needs located nowhere near amenities, still got no will nor POAs, got their pensions and investments all over the place with barely any records, etc!

Thankfully, most clients are pretty well prepared and have all their ducks in a row from when they were in their 50s and 60s so that they go into their 70s fully prepared, everything in order, so can actually enjoy their twilight years without stressing and having to make changes. Even for those without health conditions (physical or mental), life's easier once they've consolidated their multitudes of bank accounts, investments, pensions, etc., so they don't need to spend as much time on them, less time on tax returns, etc., as even without health conditions, most peoples' brains start to work slower, and things become harder to do, especially with societal/technological changes they have to keep on top of too!

Got a brilliant married couple who are clients. Both still have their respective mothers, who are both in their 90s. One moved when she was in her 70s to live close to the couple, in a small town with all amenities, bus services, etc. Ideal for her as she can still potter around town, get herself to the GP, library, shops, etc. but her son and DIL close enough to spend quality time with her (not caring nor free taxi service) - they go for trips out for pleasure etc. The other mother is in a care home close to where she lived all her life. Didn't "Need" to go into a care home, but saw the signs coming and decided to choose her own rather than end up in one allocated to her, which took her a couple of years to find one and then wait for a place to come available (she wanted a room on the front with a sea view so had to wait!). A decade later she's now got dementia, and can't go out on her own anymore, but she knows where she is, recognises the staff, can still enjoy friendships with the other residents - rather than a "big" lifestyle change that would have confused the hell out of her by moving when she was in the depths of dementia, she's just "slipped" quietly into a life of dementia, without any big shocks. So much better!

Well in the two cities I've been looking at "over 55" retirement flats, there's no shortage of them at all. Dozens of them on the market, some for many months.

In one small city where my son lives which is one of our potential places, when you go to Rightmove and search for flats, there are dozens of them, when you filter out the over 55 restricted ones, there are just 2. So the vast majority of the flats for sale are in restricted over 55 complexes.

They can be a bit of a swizz when you consider service charges and sale restrictions/inheritance issues.

Getting back to the point - we are not saying ‘everyone must move/downsize’ from their homes we are trying to empower our elderly to look ahead and IF they are adamant they will not leave the home they have lived in for decades then they must consider any adaptations that will mean they can remain there.

It is dead simple. Yes Mum/Dad/Aunty/Uncle we appreciate you have lived here for 60 plus years but every time we speak you complain about something else that is broken/unmaintained/is unmanageable. Here are some suggestions to make life better/easier for you but also for us who are not spring chickens either.

I had the madness of this last year. I have a cleaner - I ended up cleaning my mother’s house because she refused to have a ‘stranger’ in the house. So I go out - an hours drive - clean my mother’s house/laundry/bed changes etc whilst I paid someone to clean my place. Sheer madness.

Anyway it wasn't up to her standards so I stopped doing it.

Refusing to engage with help is all well and good IF they can manage themselves. When they cannot manage they should not simply assume their middle aged adult kids should step in. And yes I am aware we are entitled to claim carers allowance.

Exactly. People have become wise to the fact that they are a rip off, which is why they are not selling.

I agree that people should prepare, but it is not that easy. DH and I are early 60s. DH is disabled, but we are OK at the moment as we have a stairlift etc. Future-proofing would mean a bungalow, which we can't afford as they cost more than our semi is worth, or a rip off retirement complex.

One thing that we can all do easily though is declutter, I have already started. My friend's last parent has just died and the house is full to the brim of stuff. It is heartbreaking to skip the contents of a home and I don't want to put anyone through that.

@PandoraSocks good points well made about your situation.

Back to the point we have commented on throughout the thread. We are not advocating moving per se just paring back/decluttering etc so our adult kids are not left with a load of stuff.

Said it before - just declutter people.

I'm into regular decluttering anyway, and at different life stages. I won't be moving into a tiny house or flat straight away when we retire though, assuming we are still healthy then. No matter how quickly things can change, I'll still want while I can to have friends and family over to stay, parties, Christmases, dinners and nice holidays. PIL are still at this stage in their 80s. They have sorted out POAs, wills and IHT issues though as best they can. That's all I'd expect. They have plenty of money if private care is required.

For my parents their care needs never went beyond medical so it was always provided by the NHS/local authority. Important to remember that medical, palliative and end of life care is actually free of charge!

Most are fine if you do your due diligence and properly understand the charges, leasehold lengths, etc. Yes, the annual/monthly charges may appear superficially expensive, but you have to compare them against the potential costs of living in your own home, i.e. house maintenance, gardening, utilities, carers, etc., which are all things usually covered in your retirement complex charges (obviously not "care" as such, but you're less likely to need carers (at first anyway) if you're in a purpose built complex without stairs, with wider doorways, handles in the bathroom, etc. And if you stay in your own home, you could well have to pay for a downstairs bathroom, stair lift, converting a bath to a shower, etc. Yes, all "potentials" but you have to think it through. Not to mention that houses often need "big" costs like a new roof, new boiler, re-wiring etc., whereas in a modern retirement flat complex, you'd not have the risk of having to find thousands to keep it water tight, warm and safe!

We're properly researched McCarthy & Stone as there's a complex in the town we are planning to move to. We know the pros and cons and are happy with the costs, consequences, etc as, on balance, it suits us better than continuing to live in our own home.

We certainly don't "need" to move into it yet, but we both know that by the time we "need" it, it'll be too late to move, so it's finding a balance. Downsizing will also mean we can properly de-clutter when we're still young and able enough to go through it properly, enjoy reminding ourselves of important things we kept decades ago, and whittling it all down to the genuine "keep sakes" rather than all the less important stuff! That'll help our DS when he comes to clear out after we've gone!

@BlueLegume
That sounds like a crazy situation but sadly not uncommon.

I think we need to have a proper, grown up conversation as a society about people's rights as they get older and what this practically looks like for the elderly people themselves, their support network and society at large. If you exercise your right to stay in inappropriate accommodation and not accept a reasonable level of support then who is responsible for sorting out the mess you will inevitably find yourself in? You can't choose to live in a way that is predicated on other people supporting you in specific ways when those you are relying on are simply unable or unwilling to provide the support you need and want. There is often a form of blackmail going on when elderly parents refuse to listen to their children, make changes or accept support and yet when it all goes horrendously wrong they know that the children will be left picking up the pieces.

I'm not sure what the answer is but the current model isn't working. Too many elderly people are choosing to live in unsustainable and quite frankly dangerous ways that are placing a huge strain on families and also society at large.

You sound like you've done the hard work and really thought it through.

My parents downsized and downsized and lived in a static caravan/park home for ten years and it really worked for them, it was a lovely set up. These can also be a swizz though if you don't look at the ts and cs carefully and pick the wrong site.

They have plenty of money if private care is required.

This is the key point! For those who can afford and - importantly - will accept all the help they need then it's not really a problem. However there are far more who either can't afford or refuse to accept the level of care they need and think it's reasonable to take over their children's lives to get it all done, when with a bit of planning there would have been a better way to do things.

If you can afford to adapt your current house and have the funds for whatever level of care you may or may not eventually need and do not expect your family and friends to upend their lives on your behalf then crack on. No-one's trying to take anything away from you. If that's not you...

@BlueLegume

Refusing to engage with help is all well and good IF they can manage themselves. When they cannot manage they should not simply assume their middle aged adult kids should step in.

I think the problem is (certainly with MIL) was that with dementia, she didn't realise she couldn't do it herself, and as soon as we'd do something for her (cleaning, making a meal, laundry, gardening), she'd think she'd done it herself! When they are in denial like that (because she couldn't remember not doing it), it's nigh on impossible to persuade them they actually do need help!

Despite managing her own garden for years, for the last couple of years of her life, despite being physically able, MIL stopped going out. We'd remind her and cajole her, and she'd always agree to go out and "potter" but she never did. Yet the next day, she'd say she had! That was because she always used to go out daily (rain and shine) to do "something" even just picking up a few leaves or sweeping the patio etc! Because she previously did something every day, her memories stuck in her mind and she genuinely thought she was still doing it. Often making comments like "I only brushed the patio yesterday and look how bad it is again" when we knew for certain she hadn't!

Same with cooking her own meals. She'd always been a "proper" cook, i.e. making meals from scratch rather than ready meals/pinged meals, etc. But she started having to microwave ready meals as she forgot how to cook things, then forgot how to turn the oven on. But at first, she was fine pinging a ready meal. But afterwards, she'd be convinced she'd cooked it and start saying things like she'd not buying meat from "that butcher" again because it was too fatty (the meat in her ready meal lasagne!). Then she clearly lost the ability to use the microwave, because we started finding the trays in the bin with only a tiny bit eaten, looking either grossly under cooked or burned! But again, she still couldn't remember not eating her meals, so would hear nothing about having a carer to cook her meals, as she "could do it herself".

Waste of time.
I tried talking to my parents 10 years ago when they hit 80. They had just started to slow down a bit, reducing their 10 mile hikes up mountains to 5 miles on slightly flatter ground and Dad gave up his allotment and they just concentrated on the massive garden. He was still playing golf 3 times a week until last year.

They are 90 now and both quite frail and in a fair amount of pain, won't take painkillers though, even when Dad fell off the ladder trying to fix a leak on the garage roof.
Mum bit my head off when I suggested they move from their enormous 3 bed house and garden to a small bungalow (mainly because of the garden).
They have had a stair lift fitted after Mum misjudged the bottom stair a few months ago which is something, but she does keep moaning about how mucky it gets and how much room it takes up. Won't let us help with the cleaning.
They still keep going up in the loft for stuff instead of waiting for one of us to help.
So in answer to your question, yes they should, but human nature being what it is, they don't or won't because then they have to face their own mortality, no matter how much their lack of planning impacts their daughters children.

I can't talk though, 65 now and we still don't have a downstairs toilet but that's another story.

Depends what you mean by disabled friendly. The newer building regs mean electrical sockets should be a certain height from the floor - easier to reach from a wheelchair. That’s a no brainer if you’re rewiring.

We were doing a house renovation and have installed slightly wider doors downstairs. At this stage of life it makes it easier to get a new sofa and piano in and is easier for carrying wildly wriggling children. But it will also make life easier if one of us needs to use a walking frame or wheelchair in the future.

Having a house with a large downstairs toilet means there’s already plumbing in place and the space to make it more accessible should it be needed (also more space is useful when potty training children…)

Having a front door with one low step is a lot easier to make accessible than somewhere with a steep flight of steps to the door.

We've been through this recently with my MIL, her house was crammed with nic nacks. We all took what we wanted then paid about £1K for a house clearance company to come in ... they completely emptied the entire house in a day.

They split the contents into charity, auction and (last resort) dump. With the auctioned stuff, they took 10% and we had the rest.

It's impossible to do this sort of thing yourself as there is too much emotion and memories involved.

I find this thread fascinating, not least because I've watched my parents morph from 50 year olds who were quite scarred by dealing with their own elderly parents and who were convinced they would sort it all out and do much better to near 70 year olds who, now it's getting more real, are utterly refusing to even contemplate leaving their beautiful, rural, manifestly unsuitable for any mobility issues, huge house with loads of land. I think it's a bit like how we're all going to be perfect parents until we have kids: it's easy to think you'll prepare for old age calmly, coolly and logically until it's actually your own increasing decrepitude you're facing.

I am expecting it to be a real pain when we have to sell my Aunt's M & S flat but it means that she is currently living the final part of her life in her own home, with care on hand and lots of new friends.

All I could wish for her!

@Badbadbunny I recognise the thinking they've done something because it's what they always used to do. Mum insisted she's just dusted/hoovered etc when it's obvious from a single glance that it hasn't been done for weeks. We have at least managed to get a cleaner in weekly now but god that was hard work.

Yes 💯% I am so fed up with old people with means that fail to plan for older age. Rumbling about in unsuitable homes waiting until a crisis fo make chanegs. This puts a huge burden on families and the nhs. You need to life somewhere that is level and meets your needs.

How are you going to get to hospital appointments when you can't drive? How are you going to move if your are widowed without a spouse to help? How do you avoid falls and trips? How to you avoid loneliness?

I think you should spell it out to them. At almost 80 I doubt they'd be up for much childcare in reality. You are right that you are also limited in what you can do for them with young kids. They need to plan without the assumption you will be there to pick up the slack.

I genuinely don't think they'll need anyone to "pick up the slack". They tend to think they're invincible and that they won't need medical attention, operations, and will continue to be able to live a healthy and active life until they die in their sleep! Completely oblivious to reality that for most people, that's not how their old age is going to be!! They all seem to think that dementia, cancer, hip operations, etc are things that only happen to "someone else"!

@TaraRhu absolutely - well said. There is another thread active with a similar discussion https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/elderly_parents/5350184-fuming-about-my-mums-demands-and-her-audacity?page=8&reply=144899915

I read this book and still refer to it - it should be something we discuss more - IMHO
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/With_the_End_in_Mind_Dying_Death_and_Wis/XcEuDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover

Something else that has occured to me, is the reliance on the NHS and the availability of appointments, waiting list spaces etc.

Its very much at a crisis point and also something that a lot of people seem to think will 'just be there' in the future.

I dont think it will.