Office of Public guardians investigation

[Spendysis]

Does anyone have any experience of office of public guardians investigations.

I have mentioned my situation on here plenty of times on various threads

I reported my dsis for financially abusing dm over a year ago and it has finally been assigned to an opg investigator who advised me I wouldn't get any updates or hear from them unless they need more information.

I have just had a call from an independent doctor who opg have instructed to visit dm to assess her capacity and if she is vulnerable being influenced etc.

Will opg inform me if any action has been taken like if they remove dsis as poa? If they do who does poa go to can dm choose or is it chosen for her. Will I be informed when they close the investigation?

Social services visited dm previously and reported it to the police who then closed the case unless opg come up with something will opg notify them directly if they do find something? I think ss have opened their case again but I've not heard anything other than a generic email

Just wondering if anyone has any experience of any of this so I know what to expect

I don't know who has witnessed the new poa the original one we did with dm neighbour as a witness I just got a letter in the post saying I had been removed as poa. There is no way dm instigated this she couldn't be bothered digging out the paperwork has no access to google to get the phone number for opg etc
I presume once I had been removed dsis registered it with dm bank. Dsis wouldn't of wanted me as poa as I would of been able to see what she was doing with dm money as I think whenever there is a transaction it alerts all poa i know it does with some banks anyway

I remember your other thread op.

Hang tight. It's good the OPG are investigating now.

@SquishyGloopyBum thank you I remember you from my previous thread I can't believe this is still going on hopefully opg finally do something

I have done nothing wrong never had a penny from dm never when she has loaned dsis money in the past asked where is mine

Yet I seem to be the only one suffering to have lost out I have lost my family family friends and not that I relied on in my half of inheritance

It is a good thing opg are investigating things finally and dsis deserves everything she gets she has caused all this but dm doesn't deserve this at 84 being interviewed by ss police and now opg doctor i feel awful have felt sick all day as I reported it to opg no idea what i have done to dsis either to make her treat me and my dsis like this

Mum will only be spoken to by the doctor atm to assess her capacity, it may be difficult to assess whether she had capacity at the time you were removed and she changed her will. It might be that she has capacity and is happy to give money to your sister, you'll have to wait for the investligation. If your sister has been stealing and abusing mum then she will have to face the consequences and maybe the court of protection will take over.

I am overthinking the dr going round tomorrow will dsis have prepped dm what to say if she knows about it? The dr said he had tried calling her but got no answer she doesn't go out in the week when dsis is working I don't even know if she is still living at home i presume she is as we all periodically drive past and curtains open and close but sadly i probably wouldn't be told if she was in hospital or was living with dsis. This is something that causes me anxiety not being told she is in hospital and not able to say goodbye when she's at the end of her life like we did with dmil or not being told she has passed away

I don't know what I have done to my dsis to make her treat me and my dc like this I've have lent her money I have never questioned when dm has lent her money that was never paid back never asked for my share and when it came to light she was stealing never accused her of that but warned she may get into trouble never asked for the tens of thousands she's already had come off the inheritance. It took me months to raise my concerns with the opg as I really didn't want to lose my relationship with her or get her in to trouble and certainly didn't want to lose the relationship with dm

Is the doctor in contact with you directly, if there's no reply from her phone he will go to the address you've given them, if she's not there or there's no reply I'd have thought they try and track her down, maybe through her GP, if she's in a xarehome it would show up on her bank statements, if she's moved in with your sister they will look there. Not being able to find her will raise a massive concern, what type of poa does your sister have,

@MissMoneyFairy the doctor only contacted me once to say he was going round and had tried call her but got no answer i confirmed to use the landline as she no longer has a mobile
I didn't hear anything to today so presume he saw her doubt i will hear anything he will just report back to opg

I was being dramatic last night perimenopause insomnia anxiety and going through this for the last few years is difficult and I tend to find I go over everything in my head at night when I can't sleep

I don't think you are being dramatic. This is a highly stressful situation and you don't know what's going on.

I hope things become clearer soon.

Just received an email from dm friends from the other side of the world dm lived there when she first got married and has always kept in touch they have received a letter yesterday from my dsis saying dm is not well asking for mine and dsis phone number dm sent them a Christmas present and they would like to thank her over phone if she's up to it. They used my email address many years ago when they visited the uk

Well it's news to me dm is unwell i presume we arent talking about a sniffle or dodgy tum and I live 5 minutes walk away from both dm and dsis. Not sure how to respond to them or to forward it straight to dsis email so she can reply I can't pass the phone to dm as I don't know where she is or what is wrong with her or how unwell she is

I know dm is in heart failure has been for years but was still plodding on living at home

Do you know who mums GP is, you could start there. They won't give out much info but you can make them aware of your concern, they could try a home visit, there's nothing stopping you going round to her house with them.,

I am really struggling with anxiety i feel like i am going to burst into tears constantly and keep feeling like i am going to have a panic attack

I do know who dm gp there are 2 at the surgery that mainly deal with dm and dsis as she is in poor health also unfortunately my dsis is really friendly with them she's a nurse and they discuss dm with her I am at the same surgery and have been many times to discuss my mental health regarding this family issue and it's really difficult when I see the same doctors I am married so have a different surname and I want to scream do you know which family members I am talking about

I haven't forwarded the email yet to dsis because every time i go to I type out a message then delete it i have emailed opg to advise if the doctor hasn't been able to get hold of dm i have heard she is unwell so may be in hospital or at dsis and sent similar to ss maybe they can find out something

I can just ignore the email they have no idea i still use that email address but then I think its not fair on them or on dm but then non of this is fair on me

Dsis has had the money spend it can't get that back changed the will doubt there is anything I can do so I hoped when the time came she would of at least contacted me and dc so we could say goodbye but I now doubt she will I don't even know what i would say to dm I love her but I am hurt and disappointed she's allowed dsis to manipulate her

Stupid question but I am not thinking straight when dm passes i presume the opg investigation just stops as there is no longer a poa despite their findings so i presume dsis just gets away with it. Will i be notified at all

Dsis is currently clearing dm house out the last few days it not in right move yet I have no idea if she has recently passed away or not I doubt dm will be in a care home as dsis won't want to spend her inheritance as this is what this whole nightmare situation is about dm money not that I was even interested in it Not sure how i could find out but I haven't had any sympathy cards from relatives who probably aren't aware of the situation and send me a Christmas card each year and dads grave hasn't been distributed yet

I doubt dsis would contact me if dm was at end of life to give me the chance to say goodbye and I doubt she will tell me when she has passed but I am stressing as me and dh go away in the next few days for the first time without dc 20 and 23 and I don't want them to have to deal with this while we are away but why should i cancel when i probably won't hear anything anyway

The opg will end it's investigation when dm passes but concerned parties can report it to the police. How do you know your sister is clearing her house.

@MissMoneyFairy we only live 5 minutes away dh mate was working on the house next door this week and asked if we knew the house was being cleared as dsis her friend and a van was there emptying out sofas and furniture. Dh drove past and even the garage has been cleared out the door was open

Dh has messaged his cousin who is dsis best friend who claims to be on neither side but despite me telling her what is going on what dsis has done is obviously turning a blind eye and clearly in dsis side

He texted asking if everything is ok with dm as we have seen the house is being cleared and asked where she was now living after 5 hours she was with dsis at dm house today clearing it out we saw her car there she's replied everyone is ok ignoring where dm is dh asked again and she avoiding answering the question

I guess dm is still alive for now then

I found your thread on a google search whilst looking for Public Guardian reviews. Your situation is so similar to my own, that I have joined mumsnet, just to share with you. We are clearly victims of a tried and tested technique used by money orientated, selfish individuals like our sisters to deprive us of our inheritance, family relationships and other safeguarding rights. This is facilitated and in fact aided and abetted by the supposed Public Guardian(PG) who is not fit for purpose.
My sister cancelled our powers of attorney and replaced them with new ones for her and her husband. The new POAs were in force months before the old ones were cancelled and like you, the first I heard were termination letters from the Public Guardian. It took a lot of persuading to get the PG to investigate but they treat me as a non POA and as you know that means no information provided. They will only investigate from the date of the newer POA because the old one was cancelled. Of course we are not POA because the PG did not carry out any due diligence when cancelling our original POA. I asked them when would they suggest it would be legitimate, when a brother and sister have POA, for the brother to be replaced by the sister's husband. I still do not have an answer to that and at the moment my complaint is trying to reach Amy Holmes, Director of the PG.
Like yours, my investigation has taken a long time for the PG to address and even now, I am not actually sure if they have started it; I hope your investigation is well underway. As you are aware if the donor dies, they instantly drop the matter, regardless of any findings. My dad is a frail 91 year old with dementia, so given delays to date and other PG foot dragging, he will sadly die before the PG's limited investigation is complete. My argument here is that people in our situation are the injured parties, very rarely the donor, so the Guardian of the Public should really do their job with respect to the donor's estate and the original, intended wishes of the donor. In my case there is significant tax not paid, so the PG would be serving the public purse too.

The PG also look for mental incapacity in the donor and if that is not found will not take action. Mental incapacity would be a factor if attorneys were directly stealing from the donor for their equal benefit against the donor's wishes, when of sound mind. In our case and I suggest the vast majority of cases it is supposed equal beneficiaries having their inheritance pilfered by a sibling. For this to work there is coercive control that relies on the donor being vulnerable and maybe not capable of making good decisions but basically of sound mind. Coercive control is a crime and therefore only actionable by the police, so we have to call it undue influence, a different way of describing the same thing, so it can be dealt with as a civil matter by a solicitor and/or the PG.

You have helped me confirm the obscene inadequacy of the PG and given the clarity of this situation, I intend to pursue it, firstly with the PG director, Amy Holmes and when that likely fails, I am thinking perhaps the Daily Telegraph or another newspaper may be interested in exposing the disgrace which is The Public Guardian. The PG really are the only sensible option for people like you and I. They absorb our efforts and energy to put matters right and then do their best to ensure that nothing is done to remedy. Their processes are seriously flawed by design and their rules are a deliberate obstruction to all that is fair. In our cases all the money taken should be put back into the estate, the POA should be removed and we as previous POAs should either be reinstated or given deputyship. I also suggest that any access to bank accounts should be removed, along with trusteeship of wills, etc.

I think it highly unlikely the PG will be of any use to me whatsoever but I sincerely hope they can assist you. There is a hope but I have not found any evidence of anyone who has been fully and correctly served by the PG yet. In that respect I encourage you to explore the coercive control, criminal option with the Police. When I work out who to actually contact, that is the route I will be taking. We owe ourselves and families the right to deal with the pain and suffering our sister's have caused and if that means police involvement, then so be it.

@rhino666 I am sorry you are going through something similar
It took a year from opg acknowledging my concerns and agreeing to investigate before it was assigned to an investigator

In that year adult ss were involved and they contacted the police as they were unsure of dm capacity they police went out said dm was fine and closed the case unless opg came up with something

When it got signed to an investigator they advised me I wouldn't get any updates or be contacted unless they needed information. I did get a call from an independent doctor they had contacted to assess dm as they were struggling to contact her

I recently contacted opg to advise dm house was now up for rent obviously I had to find out from a neighbour she is now living with dsis and see the board up. they did come back to ms saying dsis can do this as poa but the concern is dsis getting the rental income and for me to pass her details to thr estate agent which i did just that they then informed my dsis who logged a complaint against me with the police i explained i had been told to do this and they apologised. they werent interested in the case they had open previously the officer thaf called me knew nothing about it nor the fact that dm house has been cleared and my stuff things like ornaments and jewellery i was given when i was born or christened hadnt been returned to me

The whole thing is a farce and I am not holding up much hope I think dsis will get away with it. I really don't see how difficult it is prove what she has been doing it's there in black and white on dm bank statements dsis was transferring money to her own account and using it for her own personal spending and therefore doesn't have receipts showing it was for dm care

It's not even really about the money it's the lack of contact and relationship with dm she's 85 now it was her birthday this week I won't be able to get this time back with her neither will my dc her only gc

It's awful I've lost my family and some family friends i do have a supportive dh and young adult dc but I've not done anything wrong and i feel opg ss and the police have failed to protect dm who whether or not has capacity is a vulnerable adult especially now dsis has isolated her from me and my family

I just want closure now but and i feel awful saying this i think I will only get that when one of them passes away dsis isn't in good health either I doubt i will be told when dm passes away or get the chance to say goodbye and it makes me sad and causes me anxiety

Curious to know if dsis has changed her will when she had dm change hers as it was to go to my dc but she is nc with them now and she has no other family

I was thinking of using a small amount of my mum's (dementia) money to pay me something towards the cost of me having to drop a day's work in order to look after her, clean, shop and take her out, to stop her being so isolated. But I would agree this with my sibling in advance, we are joint poa. I am entitled to pay myself out of the attendance allowance she receives. It's only because I will be taking a large reduction in earnings and pension, and carers cost twice as much.
Your sister should have agreed this with you if that's why she's taking money.

OP, there is another issue you might be able to raise with the OPG, depending on your mum's capacity.

The right to a family life is protected under the Human Rights Act, so if your sister is preventing visitation on your mum's behalf then it is a safeguarding concern.

I have seen a situation like that investigated by the OPG in the past.

Be very careful doing this! It is possible but you need to make sure you’ve covered your back. I looked into it at one point but financially it made no sense as I earn far more than a carer and have a mortgage to pay so it was better to pay for a carer with the money.
https://www.moorebarlow.com/blog/can-i-be-paid-to-care-for-a-relative/

@UnhappyAndYouKnowIt thank you I wasn't aware of that I will look into it. It's frustrating I shouldn't be having to tell opg adult ss and the police their jobs I have explained to all 3. Dsis has always been a financial nightmare me and mainly dm have always bailed her out but we accepted that. We were close she was on holiday with my dc - booked then she couldn't afford it so as usual dm footed the bill when dm asked me to get her bank statements as she wasn't getting them in the post I have not seen these the lady in the bank advised postal statements had been turned off by the app dm does not have this. Dm advised me in 6 months £10k had been transferred to dsis i advised her to talk to her dsis I was also poa not registered with the bank dsis had been pestering me to do equity release claiming to avoid inheritance tax. So I suggested we all get together dsis had obviously already spoken to dm who said she was happy for her to have the money she slipped up when she said although she doesn't always ask first fine I explained my reasoning for not wanting to do an equity release as inheritance tax wasn't applicable and could be seen as deprivation of asset subject to capital gains tax dsis agreed not to do it dsis suggested not me that it is agreed the zillions she has been lent previously come off her inheritance so I thought everything was ok

she block me tried to keep contact with adult dc which at the time i encouraged but they thought she was petty messaging hope you both and your dad are ok we had a big family chat as dh cousin is also dsis best friend we would message and she would read but not reply I left as it was awkward

She blocked us all we were excluded from family events I get a letter from opg I have been removed from poa i did see paperwork for an equity release mortgage at dm tried to talk her out of it but she said dsis needed the money. I asked her had she changed her will she said she wanted her money to go to who looked after her so as I have been excluded i presume she has I can almost hear dsis saying that It was them who reported it ss as dsis pretended to be dm at first and that she wanted the money to tide her over until she comes into money

I then get an alert from the land register there is with a different company a charge on dm house so dsis has done it

Probably because I am going through it but the time frames the bank statements removal of poa equity release is it not quite obvious what is going on?

I have made a lot of excuses for dsis despite everything she must be deeply unhappy with her life that she's trying to prove she's happy successful with her excess spending etc

The evil side of me hopes DMs estate goes to probate dsis who dispite manipulating my dc telling them years ago everything goes to her and when they said no it is split between you and our mum she responded inheritance isn't guaranteed she is the one who has 3 mortgages on her house including an interest only one that she has no way of paying off unless she gets her inheritance i don't if she was short of course I would of helped her out now she's already spent the money she got from the equity release and i hope she has to provide hmrc with 7 years worth of statements and is taxed on all the loans /gifts not my problem if it's not enough to cover her mortgage I did try to warn her of all of this

Do you think your mum has capacity to decide whether she wants you to be able to visit and to voice that decision? If she does and your sister prevents you from visiting or communicating with you then it is considered abuse under article 8 of the human rights act.

If she does have capacity and says she doesn't want to see you then there's nothing you can do.

But if she does want to see you or lacks capacity to decide then it is her human right to have access from you.

If your mum ever needs care because your sister can't manage on her own, then the council can pursue your sister for any of your mums assets she's spent.

I wish it was uncommon, but there are so many unscrupulous family members who do things like this.

I have been thinking about you and your situation as well as considering my own and I find it hard to accept the position we are both in.

You are obviously an honest and decent person who has done their best to deal with a situation created by dsis, a criminal who has effectively stolen from you and cruelly tortured you with multiple safeguarding, family and financial issues. It would appear that neither the police nor the Public Guardian are ever effective in these circumstances which is criminal it itself. What does one have to do to get these people to do their job?

I am currently trying to involve the police as have original letters from my mother that prove my sister’s money extraction and coercive control are to blame for my mother jumping in front of a train in a determined attempt to kill herself. She survived after coming out of a coma with serious injuries but was my sister’s puppet from that moment forward. Can anyone suggest how I get in touch with the correct police department to deal with this. I emailed their male coercive control helpline some days ago asking this question and have not heard back.

In order to be coercively controlled/unduly influenced, the controllee requires mental capacity; why does the Public Guardian wash its hands of this obviously, very common scenario on the basis that they take no action if the donor has mental capacity?

Am I correct in thinking that you actually have possession of dm’s bank statements, showing the money transfers to dsis? Surely the evidence does not get much clearer than that; it is theft pure and simple and if not dealt with by the police as a criminal matter, could be dealt with as a civil matter by a solicitor. Dm’s support and agreement in these matters, whilst compelling is the usual situation with Coercive control/undue influence, sad to say and certainly no good reason to dismiss the obvious crime committed.

The other matter that has me confused is dsis now looking after dm at dsis home. The only thing, more important than money to the money orientated, selfish personality, epitomised by our sisters, is the avoidance of responsibility. My sister made a choice to fund care home accommodation for our parents at a cost of over £3k a week rather than care for them herself. Your dsis, having taken all dm’s money will know that she could place dm in a home with 100% authority funding; why hasn’t she done that? I consider that a worrying choice on the part of dsis and would want to know the true motive.

I am sure you realise that there are many people in exactly our position which is absolutely no comfort but if a general way forward is to be found, I believe the key is in addressing the Public Guardian with it’s very obviously flawed processes and ridiculous rules. I am going to take this on for the greater good but any positive changes that may happen will be too late for us. So far I am aware of the two of us in this position but it would be really useful if any reader of this thread who has personal knowledge of any similar matter could make themselves known to me. To carry any weight in my argument to constructively address the Public Guardian, I really require more examples of this blatant abuse of LPOA. I would also like to hear from any person, if indeed they exist, who considers that the Public Guardian has served them well.

Thank you