Appalling behaviour-dressed up as old age-it has to be addressed

[BlueLegume]

Hi all, having followed and contributed to several threads on ‘Elderly Parents’ I want to thank so many of you for helping me look at my/our situation. I won’t name check you just yet but you know who you are. This thread is not to be unpleasant about the elderly who are having a hard time. It is to address a very honest point that my parents have always been difficult. Impossible to discuss anything important with, always known better and having watched them alienate good decent people I am angry that they made no effort in life to do anything other than fun stuff for themselves and now expect me and my siblings to pick up their mess. It seems so many middle aged people have fallen foul of these ‘war babies’ as my mother still refers to her and Dad. Yes I accept they were born at the end of the war and they will have had to live in a post war country. For our mother that is all she talks about. She doesn’t accept they had the boom years post war which she has photo evidence of living it large in the 50s and 60s. She was an incredibly authoritarian mother yet after a few drinks would party all night. Always a case of do as I say not as I do. Now as I approach 60 I am wracked with worry and anxiety because she now ‘can’t cope’. It’s ruining life . I have all the therapy theories and have shared much of it. That said I am mad at the fact I am still dictated to or it feels so by her. Father is in a nursing home after a lot of denial that was what he needed. She will not have any help in the house so it is all falling to us. We are broken. My own family are fed up and rightly so. Selfish as it sounds I did not retire to look after a very unpleasant woman who has never liked me. I appreciate that sounds very bitter.

Bigging up not bugging!!^

Mine did some really weird things like that as well. She was determined I get a job as a teenager and told me to post my CV through the letterbox of a house belonging to people that owned a local business which was really bizarre.

And then when she thought I'd been tardy about phoning a local care home for a summer job she called them herself which was mortifying. (Plot twist: it turned out later she had an ulterior motive for me getting that particular job and seemed baffled when I didn't want to work as an unpaid carer for my Dad. I felt I had done my turn at wiping jobbies off bums and changing incontinence pads and 100% did not want to do that for my Dad, I think he'd have found it awful too).

There's an army of these bastards out there! www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5217509-to-refuse-to-be-their-carer

@HoraceGoesBonkers isn't there just, the poor soul on that thread has a small baby and the GP is behaving in a vile, hectoring way.

It is just endless

OMG - the phone call thing! I had actually completely forgotten about this (or blocked it out) My mother did exactly the same.

Phone calls at strange times of the day or night. Very early in the morning, middle of the night etc, and hang up when I answered. It was back in the day when you could do a 1471 on a landline to see who called. If I rang back, she would answer the phone as though she had been busy until I called and absolutely deny it was her - even when I had irrefutable evidence it was her. It carried on once I went over to just using a mobile, but at least I could screen her out specifically if I wasn’t up to the draining calls.

And yes to the dramas. If she had been unwell, she always ‘nearly died’ If I stood up to her, she would get sudden chest pains and be unable to breathe, if someone was a bit short with her, they ‘shouted’ at her. Always OTT.

When I backed off and tried to cool the relationship, she contacted my daughter and tried to enlist her in the silly games, not realising my daughter told me everything my mother had said. I was very annoyed when she told her, “You can always confide in me if you don’t want to talk to your mother about anything” I respect my adult daughter’s privacy hugely and completely understand there are things you might not want to tell your parent because they are sensitive or that they’re too emotionally involved - but knowing my mother, it wasn’t from a place of support or kindness for my daughter, it was wanting to feel she had something over me and that she might have access to a ‘secret’ that I didn’t. Pathetic really.

@JohnPrescottsPyjamas as ever nodded along. My mother tried similar tricks with one of my very lovely but also incredibly astute adult daughters. My mother painted me as a very difficult person and told said daughter that she understood how difficult it must be for her having me as a mother. Feisty but firm daughter stood right up to her saying she had a good relationship with me and that she did not recognise anything my own mother had described about me. Very proud of her.

My mother has not contacted her since even though daughter sends cards etc etc.

When you join all the dots of behaviour over decades the picture you get is far more complex than sitting in front of a GP for 10 minutes who may diagnose loneliness/depression/anxiety/cognitive decline/referrals for dementia etc. It is years of a complex personality often very controlling now having nowhere to go so manifesting itself and impacting other peoples lives. Our mother got a mild anxiety medication prescribed and every time I speak to her she reels off every single side effect on the NHS website as things she is suffering from. Usually 1 in 100 people get the some of the side effects- she allegedly has all of them. But she refuses to go to the GP.

So much in this thread resonating with me. Does anyone understand the mindset behind the presents and the phone calls?

For me, my parents get me presents that are not cheap, but I swear they just go into the nearest shop and buy the nearest item that matches their budget. There is not actual thought as to whether I might like them. So, for example, one year they bought me a Royal Doulton dinner service. It's very delicate (and I had young children at the time), contains tea cups and saucers (which I would never use) and I already have an abundance of crockery which all matches, so not sure why they thought I would want an additional random set of 4 bowls, plates etc. But it obviously cost them a bit of money, and is a nice thing in itself. So I feel ungrateful not wanting it.

With phone calls, they always used to ring my home phone when I was at work and complain I was never there. So I pointed out that I got home from work at x time, so any time after that they were more likely to catch me, but could they please not call after 9pm as we didn't answer phone calls after that as we used that as time together without the children. Result? They stopped calling during the day, and started ringing me at 9.01pm. (Which I never answered) I assumed it was me that had explained it badly, until I realised that the few times they rang because they needed an immediate response to something, they managed to ring in the middle of the evening, at a much more convenient time.

Just why do they do this? Total headfuck.

Oh geez yes. I went through a period of getting early morning and late night WhatsApp messages about my dad.

She also once shouted at me because she'd tried to call my landline in the middle of the night when dad was ill. I'd unplugged my landline several years before because we'd been allocated a number that used to belong to a business and got a lot of junk calls. The only reason I can think that she would try it rather than my mobile would be to cause maximum disruption to my household!

It’s all about control I think. My mother has never asked me once what I actually want. Instead she would buy me stuff she thought I ought to want or stuff she would want. I can’t remember one thing she ever bought me that I actually liked or wanted, ever. Usually though I would get her hand me downs and discards.

I bet there was some resentment about you working or having a different lifestyle to them. So they want to keep things on their terms.

I think they do it because any boundary must be pushed at. Even, like in the case of me unplugging my landline, if it's actually completely pointless.

The presents thing is so difficult, isn't it?! I was brought up with opening Christmas presents as a show, it took ages, extended relatives there, you had to open each present whilst everyone watched and then be over the moon about it. Then watch others open theirs. I was an anxious child anyway and this was really really difficult. The lack of fun and enjoyment! And having to pretend enthusiasm for something I didn't like or wasn't at all "me" was excruciating, it wasn't just one present like
that. They'd take it in turns each year for me or sibling to have a bigger present no matter our age or interests and whether that worked that year. I'd end each Christmas Day crying locked in the bathroom because of the pressure, the uncomfortable atmosphere and being on tenterhooks about not provoking anger all day. I can't work out of it was the wartime scarcity mindset that you should be grateful for whatever you're given, but they could afford to buy wanted presents. They chose not to (see also gift lists at weddings being considered rude and grabby!)

Contrast with now, where DM complains endlessly about presents she's been bought with a lot of thought, after expressing an interest in something etc!

I do think that many of us can recognise they have very controlling personalities. for me it makes it very hard to hear our brother explain away her behaviour as something like cognitive decline and him pursuing a diagnosis. I can see it must be upsetting for our mother but due to her personality she actually laps up the attention and seems to switch off bothering to process what’s being said.

I did mention earlier in the thread that my sister and I had a great conversation where we both realised our brother really knew nothing about his parents and that the perfect storm of our Dad being ill and our mother reacting as she has our brother has seen the reality. That the perfect house and perfect way of presenting themselves was nothing but a facade. There are no foundations so no coping skills. The cupboards and shed and drawers show the reality of the chaos, hoarding, albeit neatly. All control, if you have one coat BlueLegume I will have 10….well more like 50 actually. All about literally ’keeping up appearances’.

Controlling what they want the world to see.

I'm not having a great day. I was upset that my mum has been in contact with my husband and son. I've ended up having a row with my husband about it, he knows my mum has been really problematic but just thinks she's trying to be a nice old lady about the presents and says he feels bad for our kids.

She's never once reflected on her behaviour and apologised, ever. And if she gave a shit about me or the kids then she wouldn't have tried to coerce me to become an unpaid carer for my Dad.

When I had it out with her a few weeks ago she was so sneery, cold and awful and I just wish she'd stop shit stirring with my family.

@HoraceGoesBonkers you have my sympathy. The ripple effect of poor behaviour is devastating and if I am honest I think people like your husband want the path of least resistance so go along with the little old lady thing. Hope your day goes better

Our brother cannot or will not see the strategic way our mother drip feeds information or tells half truths about her life so it’s one massive riddle trying to get simple information.

Thanks. I've going to have a chat with him later but he is very much going along with the path of least resistance.

Even after we had the row and I said I wanted to go NC, she then immediately tried to invite herself along when I was going to see my Dad with my sister.

Her big thing is trying to escalate contact all the time. I'm worried she will actually turn up at my house at some point... she's got form for using presents as a reason to appear at really intrusive times, not just with me but with other relatives. So it's a real worry that she might appear at the house...

@HoraceGoesBonkers as ever sympathy 💐 the anxiety around all of thisis awful. I permanently feel awful. Really feel for you.

@HoraceGoesBonkers I am trying out a new way to manage this week and it sort of relates to your comment about escalating contact. I am adopting a ‘this phone call is only about X’.

What she tries to do or does normally is bring up loads of barriers or excuses as to why something can’t just be straightforward. So next week she has an appointment. I have made it clear what time I will be arriving to collect her and if she is not ready that I will leave and she will not make the appointment. It might sound bold but I am willing to give it a go. We will see if it works.

Thanks. I found, depressingly, that any attempt to have a more boundaried relationship failed. I did try really hard to have a more managed relationship with boundaries for well over a year. But anything I put in place was doomed to failure.

Like if I asked her to do x (and at the start it was no late night or early morning calls) she would keep doing x several more times, I'd stick to the boundary, then she would move on to disruptive behaviour y.

I guess the thing about her getting in touch with my husband and son is another example of this. I'd asked her not to contact me, she tried several more times anyway, and now she's started on other people in the household.

I've had a big chat with my husband. He realises her behaviour is toxic but worries about the effect of going NC with he kids and doesn't know what to do about the Christmas presents message. He says I need to stick to NC as it's been better for me.

The thing is, if he replies to her about Christmas then her pattern is to escalate and she's likely to demand to see the kids. He says in a few years we won't be able to stop the kids seeing her and isn't keen on blocking her on my son's phone.

@HoraceGoesBonkers totally get your last post and lets be honest I haven’t actually successfully used my new strategy. Sometimes I wish I was an only child as I feel my sis and I are constantly diluting what we want to say because of golden balls brother. Ironically what he is telling us and anyone who will listen he is doing does not even vaguely resemble what he is actually doing- we are fine him doing what works for him and have no expectations as we all have busy lives. He is doing exactly what our mother has always done - over exaggerating.

I feel your pain about the NC idea. Could you all just ignore the present message and see what happens - bit lame I know.

As for boundaries I feel like I have a PHd in the theory but as you say you implement them and then in my case she moves the goal posts or throws in a nonsense barrier.

The last time I didn't reply to message about gifts she pretended to be "just passing" my house (she lives an hour away) and shoved stuff through the door. Luckily we weren't in but I felt sick when got in and discovered it. My husband didn't entirely get it but she's done really intrusive stuff like this to my dead sister and around when I've given birth. So it's not just about a couple of cards, it's a reaction to all the other stuff.

@HoraceGoesBonkers that is the word - intrusive - but if we call it our we are the problem. I was thinking back to when my mother was my age now - she was having a whale of a time and had no responsibilities. I genuinely fear I will be nearly 70 and still living in this awful situation.

You can't say anything to her about it because she goes off on one about how she's just trying to do something nice... but it's clearly anything but.

My sister went to a counsellor and one of the techniques she got was to imagine my mum in a box she couldn't get out of. I haven't done that in a while but need to.

I'm so annoyed with myself as I had been feeling a lot better but the text message has really thrown me.

I'm in my 40s and reckon I might have another 10 years of this!

When I separated from my previous husband, despite not particularly liking him, my mother decided she would stay in contact with him and pass on information about me. I deliberately chose to be ex directory at the time, but she gave him my number without asking me so I had this very unpleasant and awkward call from him.

I made the mistake of telling her about a discussion I had had with my solicitor about settling the divorce and what approach I wanted to take - which she again passed on to him! When I confronted her about it, she denied it completely, but she was the only source and even my ex confirmed he had got the info from her!

Yup. Mine would do stuff like this too. She once caused a huge row by passing on some information that she'd absolutely promised to keep quiet about. She didn't deny it but refused to take any responsibility for the resulting mess and couldn't see she'd done anything wrong.

I felt so stupid for telling her And again, she'd been given a boundary of not sharing the information and had to trample on the boundary.

In these recent posts you are all describing life with a narcissistic mother. You have been trained by them to put them first and with your own needs and wants dead last. It is not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking; the best course of action is for none of you to be in any form of contact with her (and any attendant enabler in the shape of her H). Women like this cannot do relationships at all.

If they turn up with presents (i.e items that are loaded with obligation in this case) do not acknowledge these in any way and regift them to your local charity shop. Put them on an information diet and if you have to talk to them talk to them about the weather, laundry, the latest soap storylines etc. Its all very wearing and being a grey rock can be exhausting in its own right.

Horace - she contacts your son and H because they are a useful source of narc supply; your H for instance has responded to her messages. No response is actually the only response here.