Help completing financial assessment, deprivation of assets?

[Elderlycarer]

Probably controversial but here goes.
DM diagnosed with dementia 2015. Gave POA to me and DSIS. Sold her home 2016, split proceeds between the two of us who used it to adapt our home so she could live with us both to be cared for. Spent equal time between both homes. Poa solicitor advised us to take £800 each for reasonable living expenses.
Fast forward to 2024, mum needs a nursing home. Financial assessment forms for council funded care have just come through and I’m worried we’ve done something wrong. Spoken to two solicitors today, both said not sure grey area.
maybe this should be moved to legal board?
Have we acted unlawfully?

Well I doubt if anyone here can help if 2 solicitors don't know!

It was 10 years ago. How much time needs to pass for something to not be 'deprivation of assets?' Hopefully someone can advise you @Elderlycarer Sorry not much help. But if you had the house/its profits nearly a decade ago it seems unfair to basically say you have to give the money back or your mum can't go into the care home.

Thanks, I know I’m clutching at straws! I’d have to remortgage or something if she didn’t qualify for care.
I don’t think there are any time limits on depravation of assets….
Guess I’ll just fill in the form and hope for the best

Thank you. I know this is true but I’ve also read that banks don’t keep records beyond 7 years so how can anything be proven?

It sounds like a very grey area

It would probably help your case if you can prove that the money was spent on making home improvements which were clearly aimed at making it possible for you both to care for your Mum in your own homes (eg. Granny annex extension, wet room, stair lift, access ramp, etc). It will be harder to defend if the money was spend on general home improvements (new kitchen, garden landscaping etc)

....in addition to the above, I think the amount of money involved is relevant. If the house was sold for £100K and you have each spend £50K on caring for your Mum over the past 9 years then that may be considered acceptable but if the house was sold for £500K and you've each spent £250K that i would say that is definitely in DOA territory

Yes the adaptations made were exactly that, wet rooms, stair lifts, annexe in my sisters case. It was so long ago though so no receipts and it doesn’t account for all of the proceeds…

Based on anecdote and personal experience —I’m not a legal person—I think it’s a “grey area” partly because sometimes what ends up being included in the financial assessment can be quite subjective/context dependent—but the fact you split the money to create the environments and circumstances that would enable you to care for your mum at home (until the end of her life, you had hoped) seems important here and I’d emphasise that.

£100k, 50 each is pretty much spot on

Thanks, that’s a good point and it was very much intended to be until the end. She’s very near the end now and is receiving palliative care

edited to include that continuing health cage was denied in case this gets mentioned

ig Could well be u end up footing the bill for her care as it looks like u arranged to sell the property for home improvements and to avoid paying care bills.

By doing that you saved the care costs that would otherwise have been incurred.

Also the deprivation must have been with the intention of avoiding care costs.

I would argue that there was no deprivation as the intention (actual) use of the money was to provide or facilitate your mother being cared for by her family.

Trust me I could do without a house full of disability aids, an ugly stairlift and a wheelchair friendly shower!

Thank you. Im realising there’s no help really with the form itself, I can only be honest and then fight whatever the consequences might be. Care for this period would have cost hundreds of thousands at least.

Have you and your sister being paying yourselves £800 each a month for living costs?

Yes

I think you would be unlucky for Social Services to be interested enough to delve way back into her finances. I know it does happen, but I don't think it's routine.

The one thing I would not be sure about in terms of DOA is the continuing payments of £800, but you say a lawyer advised that was okay.

My experience is that my mother switched to LA funding last year so I had to fill out those forms. I was a bit concerned beforehand about being able to 'prove' the history of her assets since she got dementia 10 years earlier.

There were a lot of questions on the form about assets including a property, which I filled in honestly (by that point all she had was what was left in her bank account). They asked for copies of her last three months of bank statements. I sent in the information requested and waited for them to come back and ask more in-depth questions. No such questions ever turned up, that was it. I have no idea if they did further investigations which I was unaware of, but a few months later her funding was agreed.

I read that for care home fees councils can go back an unlimited amount of time to find if there was deprivation of assets.

Thanks this is helpful, it sounds like the same form

The point is that the deprivation of assets has to be for the purpose of gaining funding. In your case the assets were clearly intended to provide adaptations to your home in which she planned to live out her days. The £800 a month I presume was in lieu of rent/ share of bills/ to pay you as carers.
I think the fact that all went to plan for 10 years supports your case.

£800 a month each for living costs monthly? To cover what exactly?

£50k spent on adaptations, with receipts and provable expenses, I would expect to be justifiable. Over £150,000 (forgive me if my maths is wrong, I'm shit at it) of your mother's money spent by you and sister would need justifying, I would imagine. It's interesting that two solicitors have said "grey area" - did they recommend anyone more expert?

Like a PP said, if the solicitors can't give you their legal judgment/advice on this, MN probably can't! You will probably get some moral judgement - perhaps from those of us with houses full of disability equipment and "ugly" stairlifts...

It would look far more “dodgy” if she hadn’t lived for 10 years with you both. Her assets were used to provide a suitable environment to care for a frail person. Arguably you’ve saved the local authority money by using her resources for the last 10 years.

@catofglory can I just ask please… you said she switched to LA so had she been paying for care up until that point? And therefore that’s where the proceeds of her property had gone?

Apologies, that was very grumpy and not supportive, especially given you've provided care for her for years. It's a sensitive subject for me at the moment (especially fucking stairlifts today ironically!)

Providing care for such an extended period must have been very hard work, and you and your sister have been generous to do it.