Help completing financial assessment, deprivation of assets?

[Elderlycarer]

Probably controversial but here goes.
DM diagnosed with dementia 2015. Gave POA to me and DSIS. Sold her home 2016, split proceeds between the two of us who used it to adapt our home so she could live with us both to be cared for. Spent equal time between both homes. Poa solicitor advised us to take £800 each for reasonable living expenses.
Fast forward to 2024, mum needs a nursing home. Financial assessment forms for council funded care have just come through and I’m worried we’ve done something wrong. Spoken to two solicitors today, both said not sure grey area.
maybe this should be moved to legal board?
Have we acted unlawfully?

At the end of the day, what’s done is done. The legal team at the LA will look very carefully at all her finances since she sold her house, and if you have got a POA for finance, they may well contact the Court of Protection if they suspect anything untoward. They absolutely do have the authority to obtain financial records, and you would have been expected to keep detailed records of any financial transactions you have made on her behalf.
I manage the financial affairs of my SF as his deputy and have to do an annual report to show all spending I have done, with evidence.

@Elderlycarer
7k a month is a lot. It depends on what the average cost of a care home is your location, but you may struggle to get the LA to agree that cost. My mother's fees are £4200 a month which is average for our area (south east).

My DM sold a house many years ago and rented after that. When she moved into care last year she filled in the forms stating how much she had in savings, there weren't any questions asked about whether she had ever owned a property.

Thanks. Yes I agree. The placement was all very rushed and pressured after an hospital admission and we’re in the North too. If she needs to be moved so be it. As cruel is it may sound she barely conscious now.

Thanks for your input. I’ve filled in the forms and will send tomorrow. I’ll update on the outcome in case it helps anyone else

Ah that makes sense. My mother had been in her care home for years so I was keen for her to stay - but for your mother it really makes no difference as she is not familiar with the current care home.

Be aware that as a first port of call SS will ask if the family will top up the fees, in my case it was "we will pay £3000, will you top it up to £4200". I said no, they immediately accepted it, and a few weeks later agreed the full amount. Once you refuse a top up the negotiation on costs is done between care home and SS.

Please do let us know the outcome.

(Being a deputy is very different to being POA - a deputy has to keep much tighter records.)

My mum’s fees were close to £7,000 a month.
For all those wondering about the £800, my mum was doubly incontinent so needed pull-ups, extra clothing and constant washing and drying of sheets and clothes. She needed extra heating on constantly, extra nutrition in the form of liquid boosters. Chiropodist, dental and optician support. Specific clothing that was manageable…probably half a dozen more things I’ve forgotten.
And even if you are caring for someone, sometimes you have to buy in cover for a period of time, from a few hours to a day or so. That was £36 an hour.
Fortunately, my children were adults, so I didn’t have to manage them at the same time, or provide cover when mum needed me.
I can’t help about the deprivation of assets, but unless people have cared for a relative with advanced needs, they haven’t got a clue about some of the requirements and go into bosom-heaving mode about how much you needed.

How long has she been in the care home, who has paid for it so far, if she is nearing the end of her life she should receive fast track chc non means tested funding, her GP can arrange this. I don't understand how the solicitor thought £800 each a month for living expenses was fair, what did you both spend it on, was that on top of attendance and carers allowance and any pensions.

Continence products, liquid meal replacements are on prescription, there are grants available for house adaptations and a free needs assessment for things like equipment, laundry.

I'm an assessor, I wouldn't be bothered about the house proceeds, but would definitely ask about the £800 per month to each sister.

Me too, I would ask for receipts, what could have been on prescription or supplied, what assessments have been done and if fast track has been applied for.

Continence products, liquid meal replacements are on prescription

If you want the bulkiest, cheapest pads and the basic nutrition crap, then yes.
If you want slimline Tena pants that are a comfortable fit and don’t rub delicate skin on a tiny woman, and LMR that have some flavour and variety…
Yes, she’d probably have survived cheapskating my way through the last couple of years of her life, but I wanted to do my best rather than adequate.

My mum was given various tena products and a free disposal system from the continence nurse, ensure milky and fruit drinks, calorie powder, small adaptations, bed, mattress, commode, walking and bathing aids, all free. In all the hospitals and are homes i have visited or worked in they all use Tena products.

@allhailtheeyeballsinthesky what about the extra needed for utilities? £800 a month is peanuts frankly.

When the person who needs care is moved in with a relative, their home then needs to be heated 24/7 in winter where previously they only had the heating on an hour morning and two in the evening. There are so many extra costs and a live in carer is £200 a day.

But it’s helpful to see the way an assessor thinks about how relatives have saved the LA thousands.

Also to those who think £7k is a lot, there are care homes and there are nursing homes.

@MissMoneyFairy where do the caring relatives find the time and expertise to chase down every free/prescribed possibility.

@Elderlycarer I’m praying you are treated with mercy and understanding and would love to hear the outcome.

By talking to the GP, social services, looking online, the district nurses, community groups, carers groups, dementia groups. The information is there and if someone is diagnosed with dementia 10 years ago hopefully they will be in the system somewhere, was this person op refers to ever formally assessed for their care needs.

The Rent a room scheme for a lodger in your home allows you £7,500 per year tax free.
Fingers crossed for you OP that they don’t come after you. I think if you could be OK. Good luck. Not an easy time if she’s deteriorated rapidly.

It would have cost the LA far more than £150k if she had been in nursing care for say the last 8 years. More like £600k - I think the time lapsed since the sale will matter and the fact you both had adaptions made. If you had done this 18 months ago and no adaptations were made you would be on far fishier ground

And this is what is utterly bonkers with the current system- people actually seeming to begrudge the OP and sister who to be frank have used around £150 k of 'someone's personal assets' but have kept the lady out of the care system for as long as they could and probably enhanced her last few years - rather than just bung her into care maybe 7 years ago - where the money would have run out in 2 years at best if self funding and since then a further 5 years using 3 times as much taxpayer cash. What weird attitudes some people have - and I wouldn't exactly say wet rooms and ramps and stair lifts are exactly 'home improvements' - quite the opposite sometimes. OP has also no doubt paid extra on fuel, food, and needed to be around for care.

We need to bring in some kind of sensibly priced insurance system we all pay into -and no more than £40k of assets can be taken towards care needs - after that insurance kicks in. Like a ringfenced national insurance of say 2% .

I’m sorry but this is naive. Nothing is joined up. Everything is a battle. Not everyone has time to wait on hold on the phone. Caring is often juggled with earning a living and DC and strained relationships. I have researched and stumbled on many things, Mumsnet has been a godsend.

I may be a bit battle scarred from finding no NHS department or social care team talks to the others (in their own hospital or council). Simply joining the dots takes so much time, while also trying to meet the increasing needs of a confused person. The NICE guidelines are a ‘nice idea’ but they are not followed.

It is criminal to punish people who take in a relative who needs 24/7 care for years for receiving a contribution towards the additional costs which are eating away at funds to provide for your own future care needs.

I don’t care about receiving an inheritance and accept people should use their assets to fund their care - but I do bloody care about relatives being punished for helping, instead of saying to social care - here’s a problem, you sort it out.

@FiniteSagacity totally agree. And it doesn't help when some people on this forum actually seem to take delight in the fact OP is going to have to justify it- I do wonder if some of this is sour grapes because some ended up with parents homes being sold and most of the money being used on care- hence sod all inheritance.in this case the choice was made to care for the mother themselves and so inheritance hasn't been hit- however it's very hard going caring for someone in this position and wouldn't be for everyone - many partners for a start would put their foot down- Personally I think the OP deserves every penny and hope very much that the sensible view is taken -

£800 a month to you and your sister for living expenses? So your mum has been paying £1600 per month to you both?? I'm not sure you could justify that...

£800 is not riches. A live in carer is £200 a day and a nursing home is easily £1400 a week. That is what this should be compared with.

I'm 100% with @FiniteSagacity. Looking at this as a practical proposition, both sisters have given a DECADE of care. Good luck renting a separate ensuite annexe with care on tap round my way for £1600 a month, never mind £800, all self funded Now the lady is dying and does need professional care, publicly funded. Really? That's a problem how?

It will depend on the authority and the individual assessor. Ours just wanted 6 months worth of bank and investment statements.
I believe that is fairly standard. They can ask to go back further but 9 years seems like an awful long time.
Only offer them the information they ask for. Be well prepared with statements etc. if they haven't told you already, contact them and ask what information they will need you to provide.

Care home fees vary but what you have provided in comparison to care home/carer fees sounds reasonable.