What do you do as attorney?

[user14932431]

Parent has dementia (at home with council carers). My sibling has active POA but isn't doing anything unless parent's GP phones them and asks for a decision on something. I worry that there are bills unpaid, money coming out that shouldn't be, benefits unclaimed etc. I think everything is on direct debits. They've not accessed parent's bank accounts or anything. I don't have POA or else I'd do it, tbh they are just lazy.

Please could anyone share what they manage and who you've informed about incapacity?

Also, does the bank etc still have any contact with your person with incapacity?

Thank you

Trying to remember now as it was a few years back .
My brother and I were both named POA for our parents and when we helped them to fill the forms in we made sure that the box was filled in which allowed us to access accounts immediately .
Initially banks sent a copy of statements to all of us and we all had cards .
As my parents' health deteriorated we took over all financial aspects, including setting bills which were not on DD and paying carers. When mum and dad had to move into care home I completed all paperwork for that and for putting their house on the market .
We didn't have the separate health and welfare POA but my experience was that all care / medical professionals asked for my opinion as NOK and acted in line with this, citing 'best interests'.

After my dad passed away, my brother acted on behalf of my mum.

My sister and I both have POA for my parents but she lives overseas so it's all left to me. This is what I've done so far...

Accessed both their bank accounts
Pay dad's care home fees from their bank.
Renegotiated Sky & BT packages
Spoken to DWP about dad's change of address
Sorted out council tax discount for mum
Set up direct debits for care alarm, gardener etc.
Order mum's meds online
Organise mum's hospital appointments

The bank still sends letters/statements to my parents home address as they are both deemed as having capacity. I have to tell mum not to throw any post away though as she has a habit of mislaying bills.

Does he have PoA for both Finance and Health and Welfare?

For Health - not much while still at home.

For Finance - managed savings accounts, opening new accounts to transfer savings into to benefit from higher rates, spoke to utilities companies on his behalf. Didn’t change suppliers because of his paranoia, but potentially could have done so. Paid for carers, for installation of stair lift. Signed the contract with stairlift company. Since he’s gone into nursing home, paid for nursing home, informed attendance allowance, state pension, occupational pension, tax people of change of address, cancelled insurances, at last able to change fuel supplier, changed landline supplier.

Thank you all for your replies. Did you notify any of the banks and DWP etc about a parent's incapacity?

Do they have finance and welfare pia, have they had a formal capacity assessment, do the bank know there is poa in place and that its either activated now or when lostcapacity. Uou can contact the office of the public guardian if you think they are not acting on the poa and see if they can remove them as attorney.

The banks, dwp, gp and hospital, solicitors all need to see an original stamped poa form and a statement stating they have or have not got capacity. Has the poa been registered, you can check online.

Do they have capacity? Have they had an assessment which states they aren’t capable of making their own decisions?

basic premise is capacity must be presumed. So your parents should be asked what their decisions are. You shouldn’t just “take over”.

i basically just assisted in carrying out their wishes, and made sure bills were paid.

everything you do must be documented.

Thanks - in answer to the questions
POA is for financial and for health and welfare. It's registered and activated. Sibling has the certified copy.
Incapacity - Capacity has been formally assessed. Certificate of incapacity to manage financial, health and welfare has been issued by GP. Sibling has copy from GP.
The paperwork all appears to be ready, the problem is that sibling isn't doing a great deal with it.

All you can do is ask sibling why they are not doing anything and suggest they give up being attorney, you can report them to the opg if they get defensive and still won't do anything. Are there any replacement attorneys.

Only when I needed to deal with them. Not as a routine thing. DWP when he changed his address.

If there aren’t any replacement attorneys, then removing the existing attorney will mean applying for deputyship since he no longer has capacity to set up a new LPA

I was under the impression that anyone that holds LPOA is not actually obligated in law to step in pro actively and do all of these things, it’s just that they have the power to do so if asked/they want to.

Which is why it’s so important to choose the right people to be the Attorney. Someone you know who would be concerned for your welfare and who would want to step in and help, and who would also be in a position to do so.

No @funnelfan I don't think they are obliged to do all this either (maybe I'm wrong) but yes you'd expect them to look after your affairs if you gave them POA. So I don't know whether I'm overreaching or not.

Another thing (I feel I should know this but am going round in circles trying to find information online) what happens when you need to pay for something for the parent? We need a repair done on parent's house, does the attorney usually pay for this using parent's money (parent has plenty) or does one of us have to pay it in advance and claim on the estate in several years time?

When we did it for mil, Dh and myself split poa duties.
Dh did everything financial, I just told him what I spent and he transferred it back to me from mil accounts, he did all the service charges, electric/gas/water/insurance etc etc. I just double checked the bills/meters for him as a safeguard basically. I did everything health and welfare wise, so appointments/outings etc. we did it that way as we decided it wasn’t fair for either one of us to shoulder the responsibility for everything, yet it kept both of us in the loop, should anything happen to one of us eg surgery/illness/death/being occupied elsewhere.
Anything needing paying for can directly from
mil accounts unless it was something I paid for such as hearing aids via my credit card, then Dh just transferred the money from mil account directly to my cc. So the same day repayment. All receipts were kept meticulously along with reasons for spending any money, no one checked, but if we hadn’t I can guarantee someone would have asked at some point.

I arrange repairs/maintenance for mums house and use her account to pay, I keep the receipts and/or let DB know what I’ve spent. He’s not an attorney but that way I’m being upfront and transparent about what I’m doing with mums money. You should not be out of pocket, and it is not expected that you’d claim back against any future estate.

Occasionally I’ve paid for something small and then transferred money from mums account to mine, but I try and avoid doing that if possible. At some point soon her savings will drop below £23.5k and I’ll be applying to her council for assistance with paying for care. I don’t know how deep they go into looking at mums accounts, but I don’t want to give them any ammunition to say I’ve been helping myself to her money/ deprivation of assets.

OP normally the attorney arranges access to the donor's account and uses the donor's money to pay for things. As mentioned upthread that is better practice than paying out of own pocket and reimbursing (bit sometimes in urgent situations paying oneself and reclaiming is the only practical option.)
If you cannot obtain a satisfactory response to the Attorney's inaction (bearing in mind that many banks are really difficult to deal with and can take weeks to provide copies of statements and access to funds) I'd recommend referring your concerns to the OPG (Google concerns about an attorney and this takes you to the gov.uk web page with contact information.)
If the attorney is unable or unwilling to act as such the only option is to apply to the Court of Protection for deputyship.

Your sibling will have received enough information to know what their role is as Deputy. What makes you think they’re not doing things?

Wonder why your parents never set both of you up with POA, we have 3 for PIL, me DH and his sister, DH sorts out finances, bank accounts, utility bills, benefits, blue badge. Myself & SIL will probably never do any of the POA admin but we had SIL put on there in case we are out of the country and something needs doing urgently, myself if DH is unable.

Attorney should use parents money

Having seen the shit show that resulted when only one child of three had POA, I would never, ever have a sole POA.

same with executors. It is so easy to just steal money and no one can prove anything to get it investigated as only the POA/executor has the right to see bank statements etc.

No, submit your expense to the attorney and it should be paid immedately

our elder brother is the attorney. My middle sibling and I buy stuff for dad - like I bought him Xmas cards at Christmas and “helped” him write them, then bought the stamps. Sent WhatsApp to brother attorney, he has transferred that evening.

my elder brother is both attorney AND nearest relative defined under mental health act as dad is now on section 117 because of his dementia. he is a star and does so much in terms of liaising with nhs, various social works, etc in sorting out where dad will live or move to (poor dad hasn’t stayed anywhere longer then 12 weeks in last 13 months as he is declining so fast, and his behaviour has become abusive due to terrible hallucinations). Brother has access to his accounts and has made decisions on which accounts will be accessed and when to pay for care. He’s sorted out everything to do with the part funding between dad’s savings and nhs for his care when in care homes. He’s had to review care plans. He’s liaised with mental health team. Done the rounds of nursing homes when dad could be discharged. He settles all bills for care home, and manages bills relating to dads old house, as well as checking in on it and making sure it is secure etc. he buys replacement clothes for dad. And for the endless glasses and razors dad seems to break 🤦‍♀️.

above all he liaises with us over decision points. We have a shared log we all complete after each visit we each make so everyone can see how dad was on that day, what meds he’s on, any conversations we had with clinicians or care staff etc. we have a WhatsApp group for quick updates and questions. And then WhatsApp video calls for critical conversations which we’re doing a lot of right now
eldest brother lives nearest to dad , but is still 1 hour away. Me and other sibling are 2 hours away, so, none of us to get to dad frequently. There’s some grand kids in mix who also visit from time to time. It’s a team approach to ensure he gets at least 2 visits a week, even though these days he’s often asleep and can’t be roused - bit frustrating after a 2 hour drive 🥹.

it’s vital for Attorney to be very involved. We’re now having to ask ourselves whether it’s time to tlak to consultants around palliative care approach …no one single “child” should burden thot decision , or make it on behalf of other siblings without discussion

did your parent not put in a a substitute attorney into LPOA? that would be normal if there’s more than 1 child. although I understand under previous nduring POA rules no substitutes were provided for. If they did include a substitute then ask your sibling to delegate to you and see what they say- they may be glad to give up that role and legally they can do that. If they don’t want to give it up, then you need to get not off the office of guardianship site and spell out that they have legal responsibilities that aren’t optional. If they refuse to do what is needed, then you can write to office of guardianship to have them removed as they aren’t acting in your parents interests. That’s a huge step and the alternative is expensive and painful (you’d have to go the “deputy” route and that’s fraught with difficulties). Explain this to sibling .

as attorney they DONT have to hands on do everything - they can delegate, oversee, coordinate and offload some stuff to you, paid carers etc. agian, make sure they understand this. (Though have to say my DB is pants at delegating and thinks it’s easier for him as he lives nearer to ven youth h has times when he’s run ragged sorting stuff 😞)

a bit of pressure needs to be applied for your relatives sake- this will only get more difficult as time goes by if nothing changes

My understanding is that the older enduring POA did not have any substitute attorney provision.
my parent set his up years ago, under old rules, mainly as he wanted by eldest sibling to manage his bills and house when out of the country (he was away a lot). It only needed one of us, and was fairly simple stuff all the time dad was fit and well and making his own decisions. He just needed someone who could do his admin for him!

but he went downhill very quickly. And my understanding is that unless you recindcthe enduring POA you can’t “convert” automatically to a LPOA with its much more flexible approach

couldbexqorng on some of this. But that’s my understanding why substitutes aren’t in place for people with older POA

I did mine around 7/8 years ago and have substitutes. It’s obviou s to have them under new LPOA!

Sorry, term is replacement attorneys, not substitute . Just checked and you couldn’t do replacements with old EPA.

@Dartwarbler thank you for the long reply, that must have taken you ages to write out, I really appreciate it. Sibling is good at supporting parent and doing stuff on the phone, but not admin and from what you say there will be alot of that to come. The POA wording is not great and it seems to restrict their ability to delegate.

Here’s the law on government site regarding hat attorney must and what they can do
https://www.gov.uk/lasting-power-attorney-duties/health-welfare