McCarthy and Stone - Risks and Benefits

[blimppy]

Hi. My Dad will be 90 this year and is now on his own. He lives 3-4 hours drive away from my brother and I and there is no family local to him. He is coping, but we are looking ahead and wondering what to do for the best. He mostly looks after himself, with a cleaner coming in once a fortnight. But, he does not always, even often, eat well. He has the capacity, but not the will to cook and even ready meals seem more effort than he is prepared to make quite often. He does get forgetful about conversations and we often go over the same stuff repeatedly - I'm not sure if that is just old age or the start of something more. I am confident he will no longer get himself to appointments, medical or otherwise. He has stopped driving, which is good, but could comfortably afford taxis. He just won't organise and motivate himself.

So, my brother and I have been talking to him about moving closer to us, with some sort of retirement apartment in mind. There is a lovely McCarthy and Stone one in a good location, which would provide a proper meal at lunch quite cheaply. Obviously, if he starts to need more support, that can be provided there, but will cost more. If he were there, he would see one or other of us probably 4 days a week - as opposed to us travelling up once a month each (although he does have a younger brother who also goes and sees him some weekends when my brother and I are not there).

It's been pretty stressful getting Dad to think about moving and bringing him to us to view the place, but he seems to be accepting it. But, we are now getting concerned about what we are getting into! Firstly, we can see the whole business is taking a toll on Dad and are starting to think he would be better in his own home if he will accept us arranging increased support. We don't mind the travelling. The other issue is the cost. He can afford the flat and the service charge so that is fine, but it turns out that when he moves on, theses flats often take a very long time to see and he/his estate is liable for the service charge and council tax until it is sold. Now we are very suppportive of him spending as much as he needs to on being comfortable, safe and looked after. But that sounds like money down the drain and quite a millstone around our necks.

Sorry - this has turned into an essay! But if anyone has any experience of McCarthy and Stone or similar, would you be willing to share?

A couple of my parents' friends got M&C places and weren't impressed. Charges for everything, and had to pay for 'extras' whether they wanted them or not. They also said they could get better and cheaper food at the nearby pub. And I've heard a lot of tales of retirement flats (not just M&C ones) being very hard to sell.

If he's showing signs of cognitive deterioration, he may need a higher level of care and a second move quite soon. So perhaps worth looking at places that have sheltered accommodation attached to a care home, to minimise disruption?

There was BBC news article about them a couple of months ago.

Hi OP, my PILs moved into one in 2022, then FIL sadly died last year and MIL is still there on her own.

I have only good things to say about it! We are a couple of hours away and DH's brother lives abroad, and it is so much easier than when they were living in the family home and finding it very difficult to cope when things went wrong (eg a leak in the kitchen which caused them a lot of stress). It's reassuring for DH to know that someone pops in regularly. MIL needs personal care now, and the huge benefit is that if a carer leaves or is off sick (there's a lot of turnover in the caring profession) they will sort out a replacement without us having to worry about it. The social aspect is great too, ie going downstairs to see people, so she's not lonely and isolated.

On the negative side, I have heard the same thing as you about finding them hard to sell and still having to pay the service charge while it's on the market. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, but to be honest it has been such a good thing so far that I think any issues at that stage won't affect my overall view.

I would get carers in. The word carer is awful and he may well resist, but the impact on my parents life has been drastic. It was so hard to get them to agree, but it’s been transformational. see if you can get him to agree to once a day.

I would avoid M&S, but if he is interested in moving near you, take a look at other types of supported accommodation.

Yes they can be very difficult to sell. One option would be to see whether he could instead rent a M&S place, with the money from the sale of his home being invested and the income from that (plus some capital if necessary) funding the rental. Rent is expensive but it's much more flexible if he needs to leave because of care needs.

What is it he's looking for? If it's just a home that has been adapted for his physical needs, you can just buy a flat and get those adaptations done and this will likely be a lot cheaper and easier to sell if necessary. If he wants the social side of a retirement community, I can see that something like M&S is more appealing.

Be sure to rent and not buy. If something happens and you need to sell the flat, you are still liable for the eye-wateringly-high monthly service charges until it sells. I know of one lady whose mother died and the flat is on the market but has not sold in more than ten months. She has had to pay the monthly service charge on an empty flat for more than 10 months.

Having said that, the residents in the local one can't speak highly enough of it and their in-house restaurant is lovely.

I would definitely be looking at renting. The fact that they're difficult to sell and the owners have to continue to pay the service charge means that people may be putting these up for rental if they can't sell.

Thank you for the responses. We did look at renting, but it would be just over his monthly income to do so. That said, he has fairly significant savings, plus the value of his current house. Perhaps a renting and eating into those savings for his remaining years would be better than being landed with a property that we have to sell at a loss and pay charges on while trying to do so. Of course, if he needs substantive care then that will also hit his savings, but that is what they are for. The place does look like it brings advantages - it just looks daunting in terms of financial risk.

My experience with McCarthy and Stone has been very positive. My mother lived in a lovely M and S apartment for the last six years of her life . She was very happy there and it was a very supportive community. We are in the process of selling the apartment after her recent death and yes, we will have to pay the maintenance fees. We haven't sold it yet but its only been on the market less than a month and we haven't got probate yet anyway so we are not in a hurry to sell. We've already had a couple of offers but they were too low. My late mum would not have been so independent for the last few years of her life if she had not lived in her apartment and it gave me and my family peace of mind knowing she was happy there.

We also had carers from Home Instead and I would recommend them if you need carers. Very expensive though!

Instead of looking at a brand new retirement complex see if there are some older ones.

My MIL went into a M&S which we paid a lot for and 3 years later after she died it took over a year to sell despite us dropping the price so it was always the cheapest flat available so we lost a lot of money doing that.

only 10 mins away was a much older M&S building where flats were a lot cheaper but of course they were tired and dated. They would have been a much better option if MIL hadnt set her heart on the more flashy ‘show home” new ones - which by the time she had filled her new shiny flat with her old tat looked like the older ones anyway!

if you can find a rental.

I don’t think those are the only 2 options.

Id avoid buying a M&S.

Can’t he move closer to you without buying?
There are many types of ‘assisted living organisations.

I found a lovely one for my parents where they’d have their own apartment but could socialise as much or as little as they wanted.

In your shoes I'd work out how much you can expect his savings plus the equity from sale of his house would generate in income, add that to his other incomes and see what the shortfall is. How long could he afford to run down his savings etc to fund the rent?

Obviously doing it this way there is a risk that money he might have hoped to pass on to you will instead go on rent. To me, that seems an acceptable compromise and better than the uncertainty of being stuck with an expensive flat you can't sell and have to pay a large monthly fee for.

Also be aware that no longer owning a property will affect his IHT position, if that's a concern.

I think it depends a lot on how much longer he will be able to live independently.

My gran went into a retirement complex ( a social housing one rather than privately-owned) but was in a care home within the year. It probably would have been less disruption for her to stay in her own home a bit longer with carers coming in and then go straight to a care home rather then move twice within 12 months.

If you think your dad has years of independent living ahead of him before he might need to move again then buying a flat might be worthwhile, but if you think he's going to start needing significant care soon then you might be better leaving him where he is, or if he moves than looking at renting rather than buying.

I do think the upheaval will be enormous for him given his obvious increasing frailty. I'm afraid I think it sounds as if he may be moving towards the last months of his life.

My mum moved to a flat with a different provider. Frankly it was largely a negative experience though not too terrible as it sold very quickly once she had to move into full time care. She was never happy there, and really with hindsight we should have left her to potentially fall down the stairs at home where she was happy. The outcome would have been far better - likely a much quicker death with less drawn out misery.

If he hasn't tried carers at home yet, I would definitely do that first. But I would have fairly low expectations of what they can do for him. Make sure you understand what his wishes really are, if he will tell you.

I think as a safe and easy place to live where you don't have to worry about maintenance and always have people around you - plus on onsite manager who (ime) often goes above and beyond to help you, they are great.

They are not a financial investment and are not even financially neutral. But then I think it probably a bit unrealistic to expect them to be, tbh. In fact, expecting the last years of your life to be financially neutral is probably equally unrealistic. If you need more help then and this does cost.

So, you buy with a view to the majority of the purchase price being a 'write off' or rent with a view to the rent equally being so. At 90 I think I'd also opt for the latter, just because of the flexibility it brings.

Given he's 90, is he likely to be living independently for much longer? I agree with Pp about keeping him in his own home with support and then considering a care home when & if required.

I work for the FCA & there's an investigation into M&S due to the hidden costs and appalling state of fees being due after death when the resident isn't benefiting from the services paid for.

Could his house be rented out and a suitable local retirement flat too. Both for a year or even six months to see how he likes it?
One might pay for the other so very little risk.

We bought a flat for mil with m and s. The activities on ‘offer’ were actually provided by either other residents or family members. The care and food and safety net aspects could not be faulted and the build quality was very good.
However … the charges both during ownership and at the point of sale were extremely high. Also dealing with them getting paperwork and vetting the new owner was a ball ache and unnecessarily so.
They do provide a good service and fill the gap between living home alone or a care home.

I do think the upheaval will be enormous for him given his obvious increasing frailty. I'm afraid I think it sounds as if he may be moving towards the last months of his life. It may be slower than you think! My dad was about 94 when he reached the state of OPs dad. He’s been bed-bound a year, but is still going strong with every suggestion of carrying on. He’s just celebrated his 101th birthday.

I had some success persuading my dad out to the pensioner’s lunch at the local pub, and to scrambled eggs on toast at the supermarket. Once he became housebound I arranged meals on wheels - see if it’s still operative in your dad’s area. It’s no longer WRVS, it’s a variety of private suppliers, so what is provided is different. In our area it was a hot lunch delivered ready heated, with pudding and a drink, and if you wished, sandwiches and cake left for tea.

@blimppy you say he has significant savings, what exactly is he saving for now? This is his rainy day. I think renting these places is the best option by far and resale can be incredibly difficult.

My mum is in similar and I honestly feel this part of the housing market is a bit of a racket that predominantly serves the needs of the Board/exec team/shareholders over those of the residents.

The iniquitous charges that determine you must give a percentage of the sale price for each year the resident has lived there is just one of my many outrages.

Part of me is tempted when the time comes to simply hand back the keys and transfer deeds to them if I thought I could.

I've advised all of my friends who have relatives possibly considering this kind of set up to go in with eyes wide open and scrutinise all the details very carefully.

Fair point @MereDintofPandiculation! I do think though that increasing care at home is the first step here.

Didn’t have a great experience with MIL - the lift was frequently broken and the quality of the house manager varied. Reselling wasn’t easy. It did make MIL feel more secure than living independently and she liked the social scene.

I don't recommend this type of accommodation at all. My DF found the meals option withdrawn. The first manager was quite good, but only worked nine to five and emergencies were always when she was off. The second manager was useless. The service charges were outrageous.

DF got very depressed with all the deaths and he actually moved out to a normal house the year before he died. All the men in the building had died, except one, who went to prison for historic child abuse.

He had to pay a percentage of the sale price back, another rip off.

It sounds OP that your relative is at the limit of being independent and is unlikely to cope for long in this environment. I support the idea of renting as his needs may drastically change in a short time.