McCarthy and Stone - Risks and Benefits

[blimppy]

Hi. My Dad will be 90 this year and is now on his own. He lives 3-4 hours drive away from my brother and I and there is no family local to him. He is coping, but we are looking ahead and wondering what to do for the best. He mostly looks after himself, with a cleaner coming in once a fortnight. But, he does not always, even often, eat well. He has the capacity, but not the will to cook and even ready meals seem more effort than he is prepared to make quite often. He does get forgetful about conversations and we often go over the same stuff repeatedly - I'm not sure if that is just old age or the start of something more. I am confident he will no longer get himself to appointments, medical or otherwise. He has stopped driving, which is good, but could comfortably afford taxis. He just won't organise and motivate himself.

So, my brother and I have been talking to him about moving closer to us, with some sort of retirement apartment in mind. There is a lovely McCarthy and Stone one in a good location, which would provide a proper meal at lunch quite cheaply. Obviously, if he starts to need more support, that can be provided there, but will cost more. If he were there, he would see one or other of us probably 4 days a week - as opposed to us travelling up once a month each (although he does have a younger brother who also goes and sees him some weekends when my brother and I are not there).

It's been pretty stressful getting Dad to think about moving and bringing him to us to view the place, but he seems to be accepting it. But, we are now getting concerned about what we are getting into! Firstly, we can see the whole business is taking a toll on Dad and are starting to think he would be better in his own home if he will accept us arranging increased support. We don't mind the travelling. The other issue is the cost. He can afford the flat and the service charge so that is fine, but it turns out that when he moves on, theses flats often take a very long time to see and he/his estate is liable for the service charge and council tax until it is sold. Now we are very suppportive of him spending as much as he needs to on being comfortable, safe and looked after. But that sounds like money down the drain and quite a millstone around our necks.

Sorry - this has turned into an essay! But if anyone has any experience of McCarthy and Stone or similar, would you be willing to share?

Yes, there's no way that your MIL should have been leaving the door open but of course it can be incredibly difficult to get people to consider all the multiple other options like a keysafe.

It is equally easy to think that someone who is unhappy will be happy if problem X is sorted or if they are in a different setting, whereas quite often the unhappiness is a lot more deep seated than that.

@blimppy It is positive your Dad wants to move nearer to you. Grab that with both hands as it will be much easier long term if he lives near to you.

The financial test SS use for fully funded places appears to be if a person can stay in their own home with 4 or less carers visits then that is more cost effective than a home.

I agree with pp, there are financially better options than M & S but bottom line is they all cost.

Research what is available in your area. Talk to a local solicitor - they will have a good idea which options in your area are VFM. You will need them for conveyancing any way.

Finances - your brother is concerned about eating into your Dads savings but that is what they are there for. I would rather inherit nothing than see my parents living their last few years in some of the places I have visited. You have to pay to get a good level of care.

You seem to be under a misapprehension about M&S. Your mum would have exactly the same kind of domiciliary care calls in one of their flats as she gets at home. My mum is in a similar block and her carers are also shocking. The turnover is massive, and compared to care home staff, the carers are totally disinterested. They get their calls over with as quickly as they can, and virtually throw my mum's food at her. When she presses her buzzer they ignore it for all long as they can, and on several occasions she's soiled herself because they've taken an hour to answer.

The fact that there's a care service in the building doesn't mean that the care is equivalent to a care home. It really isn't. And all those ads showing residents socialising together and enjoying activities? I've never seen any of it happening (though theoretically it should be according to the activity timetable) and barely see anyone around. It's soulless and it's clear that most residents just stay in their flats.

Seriously, don't believe the ads and the PR. You might be lucky, but it's not my experience.

@blimppy far better to spend£12k to £16k a year of his capital if he has a house to sell than lose £50 to £100k on selling on (not easy) and factoring in service charges etc which can often be £7 or£8k a year in M&S places

Yes to carers at home as long as possible

We moved my parents, Dad with advancing Parkinson’s and Dementia into Mc&S 7 years ago. It has been brilliant for them in many ways. The flat is lovely, they enjoyed the social aspect very much and despite the high service charge it is much much cheaper than a care home with many of the benefits.
Unfortunately Dad deteriorated over Covid and had to go into a nursing home as his needs became too much. This felt as if it wasn’t dealt with very honestly as they have a strange policy of dealing with the “homeowner” and protecting their confidentiality, which isn’t very helpful to concerned family. This is also odd when their friends pop off and nobody is allowed to say what has happened!
Overall it has been brilliant, especially for my mum as she has come out of her shell. And for Dad’s bit of care with familiar staff each day. They loved the routine and ritual of their daily 3 course lunch. I can’t imagine her having lived alone these past years, she would have been much less happy
She is 87 now and looking to move closer to us now, so I’m back to the drawing board as she now isn’t far off needing a home for herself. She loves it there and it’s great, so I wish I could move it near to us as there isn’t one the same nearby and other options are either too independent and she’ll really miss her lunch, or too formal and spending £90k a year for a care home when currently she isn’t needing any actual care!
i know in my mums block the harder to shift flats are overlooking the car park so if you’re in a nice place with a view it maybe helpful to think that may sell quicker.
They do seem to have a high turnover of staff and I question their dedication to selling properties when they receive the service charge regardless of whether the resident is there or not. But I would think of current needs and solutions to your problem and maybe this would be it? It has 100% been so positive for my parents x

Parent was in a M&S development and I have the following comments to make which I hope are useful to anyone thinking about this.

Sorry for the bullet points but didnt want it to be too wordy!

• They are expensive and the service charge can be up to £1k per month but included in this is the 24 hour care, the 1 hour a week cleaning, the laundry room, the salon, the communal areas, etc.
• Yes, you can get carers but they are very patchy. Parent had one when lviing independently but I always wondered what she did (I was 100 miles away)
• They are everywhere now so likely to find one near to family. Parent often blanks out how well they are coping in often rambling house and make calls to children (often daughters!) and needs lots of support. If you have time to do this and be on call 24 hours that is fine. Bear in mind that often older people hide certain things they are not coping with especially around paying bills and technology. They wont tell you...
• I would NEVER suggest they buy unless they are very early 70's in the best of health. If you look on Right Move at the development you are interested in (sold data) you will often find they dont stay in them for very long and you can also see what the unit was brought for and what it sold for. A lot of people in parents one are early 80's plus plus. Parent RENTED. You have to committ to 1 year but the service charge which is seperate for home owners is included in the monthly rent.
• Sensibly the parents current house will need to be sold to fund the move.

For people who are saying carers in home - that is fine if you are local and can pop in every day etc but the elderly can be very needy. When they call or fall you have to jump. Everything gets cancelled for you to attend to the latest emergency even if you have theatre tickets, about to go on holiday. Been in all these positions as siblings have moved abroad. Sadly you cannot tell social services, carers, the police etc you will deal with things later on.

As people get older and older they do get more and more self absorbed with dementia potentially kicking in and parent getting more and more anxious, repeating the same worries again and again.

Parent now has to go into care home due to a number of falls and increasingly getting confused and worried but everytime she fell M&S were there when she pressed the panic putton and in the development all of the residents wore their pendants (Parent didnt when she was living on her own!). Food was very good too.

If anyone wants to PM me do feel free. The M&S developments are expensive. You wont be able to get any local authority funding for them but for the right person who has signficant equity in their current house (no mortgage etc) they might well be worth considering.

@Tracker1234 good to see a fair post. As a rented option I think they are brilliant if you have the equity to fund it. Problem is the ones in the nicest locations (we have a lovely one here in Bath) can be around £3 to £4K and they are nearly all flats- which a lot of older people have a 'thing' about. I think if you could get a nice location and £2500 all in (carers extra ) they would be inundated as so many people put off by the fact they are hard to sell. I do think M&S ( and similar providers) should have a condition in sale contracts to buy them back at 75% of purchase price if you can't sell after 6 months and service charge and council tax stop at that point too and they can use then as rentals. I think personally that market will move more towards rentals and they should be given very significant tax breaks to build 'as rentals' . This would mean less people are wary of actually buying one.

I still think Mccarthy and Stone ones in particular are very poorly designed and built. There are better providers but even then a lot of the money will be spent on making the development look fancy and very little on getting the maximum natural light, storage or circulation space.

Permament - parent's was lovely, very light and airy but maybe we were lucky.

What I would say having supported both parents (long divorced) for a number of years - its not all about them and their wants.

There are lots of people on threads on MN who seem to think it is. All YOU need to do is xxx. I sometimes wonder if they have ever been in the eye of the storm with an elderly person. Cleaning up after they have been to the bathroom, showering them, cutting their toenails, taking the endless calls and answering emails querying if something is right or not. My parent has no issues with trying to do a No2 with me sitting there just waiting (sorry maybe that was TMI!) and then cleaning them up.

I know it sounds harsh but I have found you have to have boundaries otherwise relative will demand more and more of your time and they certainly have the ability to make a sad face to get what they want. Being in a care home doesnt mean that my job is done. They are always calling you asking about medication, or because there was a fall but all OK. Its honestly relentess

My PILs one is really nice too. It's quite a new one - maybe the modern ones are better?

@GiantTortoise the one here in Bath is lovely- we had a look -

we also have a really lovely new shared ownership one here -(not M&S) so less of a risk I guess and easier to keep some cash in bank for paying the charges if it takes a while to sell on-

A lot of the home buyers and renters at M&S havent really pushed to be there if I am honest.

I have got to know tons of them, a lot have a little dementia and a number of angry that they are there in the first place. One told me that she was really coping very well in her previous house, 5 bed with a rambling garden but her children persuaded her to move. I suspect their side of the story might be completely different.

I have also noticed that although the development takes people from 70 the vast majority of well into their 80's and beyond. A good few do need to move into full time care and then of course the property needs to be cleared and sold (to a very small market of people over 70!).

If I really really wanted to buy one (as opposed to renting) I would look at the resale part of retirement complexes. People get seduced into buying new, living in them for say 1-2 years and then wondering why they lose money.

The elderly arent often known for making quick (and sensible decisions) which adds to the mix of all of this. They want to stay in their old place and its fine if their decision doesnt affect others but it almost always does hence the reason to actually consider a retirement complex.

@Tracker1234 I agree and it's no longer the case these days that family live in same town- if you want to see family regularly and them be able to help, they are the ones with jobs and kids at school to consider etc and I think older people have to consider it 'if' they want help etc. there is no way on earth for instance my H (or myself) would move near my FIL - we hate where he lives- he has plenty of money and I would like him to rent near to us in the lovely development- but at £4K a month I understand his reluctance!

Problems my parents friends have had in these type of accommodations (not all were M and S).

High service charges and increases
Executors finding resale difficult
Executors having to pay high service charges whilst waiting for a buyer
A person, in hospital, not being allowed back because care needs had changed (in their view)
Social cliques and if you don't fit then it feels awkward

However they do meet a middle ground requirement.

i would not consider buying

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-10182583/The-retirement-home-scandal-wiping-life-savings.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-68253902

Advice - all of what you say is correct and everyone needs to go in with their eyes wide open. Another distant relative in their 90's who was fit and active (as much as you can be at 90) insisted he BUY a Churchill apartment brand new.

He wouldnt listen to anyone, and upset a lot of his immediate family with his rants. He brought it of course and less than 1 year later he fell badly . Isnt going back and a care home is o the cards now. He is raging at all his family.

Looking back I think people should do it when they reach 70 (ish) Anything major like this in your 80's is likely to not go the way you might hope. You can come and go as you please. Have a parking space, have care visits or not but be aware it might not be your last move.

My DF bought a flat a year ago in a M&S complex that was built in the early 1990s.

The service charge isn't as high as the modern ones. It doesn't have a restaurant, just a lounge where he meets friends for a chat most afternoons. He mostly manages on posh ready meals from the next door Waitrose. Many residents use meals on wheels and DF tried it while he was recuperating after a short stay in hospital but stopped it as he didn't like having to be home at 12pm every day to receive it.

Cleaning isn't included either, he continues to employ the lady who did his house before he moved.

He has had to spend some money on converting a bathroom to a shower room, but is happy to live with a slightly out of date kitchen. He took the old storage heaters out and has just replaced it with an electric radiator, which takes up a fraction of the wall space and has been very efficient over the winter.

It's a popular building, I often bump into old friends whilst waiting for the lift whose parents live there too. After covid there were quite a lot of unsold flats but they are all selling now and the place is almost full again.

The on site manager told DF that most residents don't 'go out feet first' (DF's words), they tend to move on to a care home when their needs determine it.

It sounds like DF is fitter than OP's parent though. He is 89 this year and still mobile enough to go for days out on public transport on his own and he shows no signs of dementia. He pays the service charge with his pension and the interest on his savings.

Looking back I think people should do it when they reach 70 (ish) In the first few years of your retirement, you mean?