McCarthy and Stone - Risks and Benefits

[blimppy]

Hi. My Dad will be 90 this year and is now on his own. He lives 3-4 hours drive away from my brother and I and there is no family local to him. He is coping, but we are looking ahead and wondering what to do for the best. He mostly looks after himself, with a cleaner coming in once a fortnight. But, he does not always, even often, eat well. He has the capacity, but not the will to cook and even ready meals seem more effort than he is prepared to make quite often. He does get forgetful about conversations and we often go over the same stuff repeatedly - I'm not sure if that is just old age or the start of something more. I am confident he will no longer get himself to appointments, medical or otherwise. He has stopped driving, which is good, but could comfortably afford taxis. He just won't organise and motivate himself.

So, my brother and I have been talking to him about moving closer to us, with some sort of retirement apartment in mind. There is a lovely McCarthy and Stone one in a good location, which would provide a proper meal at lunch quite cheaply. Obviously, if he starts to need more support, that can be provided there, but will cost more. If he were there, he would see one or other of us probably 4 days a week - as opposed to us travelling up once a month each (although he does have a younger brother who also goes and sees him some weekends when my brother and I are not there).

It's been pretty stressful getting Dad to think about moving and bringing him to us to view the place, but he seems to be accepting it. But, we are now getting concerned about what we are getting into! Firstly, we can see the whole business is taking a toll on Dad and are starting to think he would be better in his own home if he will accept us arranging increased support. We don't mind the travelling. The other issue is the cost. He can afford the flat and the service charge so that is fine, but it turns out that when he moves on, theses flats often take a very long time to see and he/his estate is liable for the service charge and council tax until it is sold. Now we are very suppportive of him spending as much as he needs to on being comfortable, safe and looked after. But that sounds like money down the drain and quite a millstone around our necks.

Sorry - this has turned into an essay! But if anyone has any experience of McCarthy and Stone or similar, would you be willing to share?

One of my neighbours had a mum from the local primary school come in for a couple of hours in the middle of the day - she cooked him lunch and did some straightforward admin stuff like changing his library books and chatted about what was in the paper etc. It worked very well all around as she had a totally school hours friendly job he had a bit of company and his daughters knew that he was eating properly.

More anecdotally, the Mc&S block near us is brilliantly located and v cheap for the area but once I looked at it I understood why - they're all horrible, and you choose between nice natural light plus a view of the car park or gloomy with a glimpse of greenery. Plus it actually takes longer to walk from the front door, down narrow striplit corridors, to some of the flats than it does to walk to the local shop. Plus the building contains a lot of smokers and by gum you can smell it. The crappy design and build quality really depresses me - really disrespectful.

This, 100%. Took us 3 years to sell my DM's flat in an assisted living complex, and all that time we were liable for the ground rent (around £150 pa I think) and the service charges - £550 per month! We eventually sold for £50k less that she bought it for.

Having said that, the complex was lovely and DM enjoyed living there whilst she was able (she eventually had to go into a nursing home). Communal areas inside and out were well maintained and the café lunches were great for Mum.

A friend of mine lived in a village
Owned by a charity. He has a beautiful flat, and enjoyed entertaining his friends in the restaurant. But her moved from very close to the city centre, to an area miles out of town. And a long way from the nearest shop, He was an absolute social butterfly and I think he found the isolation a bit tricky. Covid did for him as they weren't allowed to mix at all with their neighbours or even leave the complex. Even though he had first access to the outside. He used to complain about the carers being late and unreliable.

@londonmummy1966 that's a great idea! I would advise the OP to do that but just to check out the legal safeguarding aspects first to keep everyone protected.
I agree that staying in his own home is probably best now as a move would probably be disruptive. It's so difficult to get older people to move house to something manageable while they are still fit enough, then suddenly it all becomes too much.
Would it be possible to find a lodger or companion to live in?

An elderly relative of mine moved into a similar type of property (this was Pegasus, not M&S) in 2021. She really enjoyed living there for the first 12-18 months, but as her health deteriorated and it got harder for her to access the communal facilities it did feel less good value. She died early last year and the flat has been an absolute nightmare to sell - two potential sales have fallen through late in the process due to issues lower down the chain and it's still not sold. The service charges etc are starting to feel like money down the drain at this point, but worse than that is that her child is the executor of her will, and doesn't really feel like they've got closure on her death while the estates not fully settled.

We decided to keep our 90 yr old mum in her own home and employ carers through an agency. They do 4 hrs a day 5 days a week. Works well for us. Mum's happy, enjoys the company of the carers and there's no upheaval for her. It's very expensive but she has the money, for now. We'll cross the next bridge when we get to it.

I used to manage a Mac stone. Lovely looking buildings but the charges are extortionate and they charge for every little thing (unless you get a nice manager who turns a blind eye to certain bits). The care is no better quality than any other non branded home and often more expensive.
Resale on the flats after your person has passed away is often very slow and people often sell at a loss.

I'd definitely rent. Anchor housing association and other similar organisations offer better value

BiL and his wife bought a McCarthy Stone flat - wouldn’t listen to us when we thought it wasn’t a good idea. They were always cold (economy 7 heating), it was very dark inside, the manager was unkind and rigid in following policy etc.

They eventually bought another house but it took 2 years to sell the flat and all that time they were forced to pay various charges plus a % of the sale to McCarthy Stone.

Keep him at home if you can, alternatively as PPs have said, rent somewhere close to you.

My in-laws in their 90's too are currently selling fil's house and nil's house (2nd marriage) to fund it. They're goi g with another company Adlington and their new apartment is beautiful. We've explored long and hard with them the pro's and cons. Ultimately it's their money and decision. They're still very independent but find the upkeep of their house too much and are fed up of cooking for themselves . The retirement flat is perfect as it maintains their independence, gives them confidence that someone is on call 24/7 and there's a restaurant for lunch.

What would you get from M&S that he wants/needs that you could not get from buying a regular flat near you and arranging private carers and an alarm pendant?

If he actively wants a community (which he may do, if uprooted from friends and regular haunts) and the community there is something he likes the look of, then it might be worth it for quality of life (but do look at buying an older flat, rather than new; and remember that when you come to sell you have to keep paying charges until it does and the company takes a share of the sale price - so do your sums - or rent).

But id he's not bothered about that, and you want to be able to arrange carers for him rather than take what they offer, then I'd be cautious.

It's the right solution for some people, but when it goes wrong it's a very costly expense (both bills and hassle)

Have you considered Extra Care housing? This is a flat complex, owned by a Housing Association, with a team of care workers on site 24/7.

Tenants have their own flat, there is a communal dining room for lunch. Plus social activities. You pay rent plus a (usually very reasonable) maintenence charge, then you are billed by the hour for your care.

If you contact your local Adult Social Care team they should be able to give you details of schemes near you.

I've been trying to persuade MiL to move to one near us - shes 91, lives 6 hours away and has no one nearby to help her.

I'm an OP Social Worker and don't like the M&S model at all. Extra Care is usually much better. Just not as flashy

Thanks for all the comments and insight. I don't think Extra Care is an option as he is out of area and it looks like there needs to be some sort of needs assessment. Dad is sounding really positive about the move now. I think we will revisit whether renting is an option. It's so hard to know what to do.

Where I live, you can move into Extra Care from out of area as long as there is a local connection. The assessment is done by a social worker.

My parents are moving into one in a couple of weeks' time - although they are renting rather than buying, which is apparently becoming more of a thing now. I wouldn't buy based on the numerous horror stories. When renting the landlord is still responsible for paying the service charge. In the complex they are going to there have been the same half a dozen apartments for sale for a year or more.

You seem very focused on what is best for you and not what what is best for them

Moving a 90 year old will never have a good outcome

Put home care in place- it seems he has equity and if needed you can release funds to pay for this

If you have an LPA you need to act in their best interests- not your own.

I wouldnt buy/wouldnt want my parents to buy one of these flats, but just to be accurate its not your friend who needs to pay the service charge, it should be charged to the estate as a debt and it will come out the estate once its settled. She shouldnt be doing that

This doesnt make sense, how would he buy one then? If he can afford to buy one then he can rent one surely?

If you're hell bent on buying M&S, don't buy new, as PP have said, they are very hard to sell (been trying to sell one in my family after the resident needed to go to a nursing home after less than a year, you never know when they'll have a fall, break a hip and not recover) so you can get a massive discount which may offset the fees.

This. Get him closer to you regardless of the cost. As the next few years bring increasing frailty, possible confusion, more need of your input, a large part of this decision will have to be what will be easier and least stressful for you. If he does with next to no monies left it really doesn't matter. He's paying for your piece of mind and quality of life as well as his own.
Unless he has live in carers, carers can leave and he could be on the floor five minutes later. You would be on permanent call.

dies

So, my Dad now has his heart set on moving. To answer an earlier question, we think the rent is unaffordable because if is £600 more than his monthly income, which when you add on cost of heating and food, means he will probably need to drawn down more than £1000 each month from his capital. Of course he can do that, but my brother's not too keen on that approach. We are still thinking!

Firstly, I don’t suppose you live near the Welsh border? They have a fairer charging policy for non residential care at home, with a 100 pw cap, no matter what an individual’s financial situation is like.

My grandfather similarly lived a long way away from my mother. He opted so sell his home, and rent a ground floor flat near to my mum’s. This wasn’t on a retirement complex so much cheaper rent. He then had a lifeline and private carers.

My other grandfather also lived a long way from relatives and opted to remain at home. He had a downstairs shower room installed and moved downstairs, again with private carers.

I know friends who have been trying to sell their late parents M and S flats 2 + years after they have died. Further, IME (adult SW), many residents band together to complain about residents with dementia. Also, I have known wardens to leave and not be replaced; they often provide no more security than an independent flat and a lifeline.

@blimppy he's 90, how much savings/capital does he realistically need. Let him spend his money enjoying his last years.

I would assume your brother is rather more thinking of his inheritance.