McCarthy and Stone - Risks and Benefits

[blimppy]

Hi. My Dad will be 90 this year and is now on his own. He lives 3-4 hours drive away from my brother and I and there is no family local to him. He is coping, but we are looking ahead and wondering what to do for the best. He mostly looks after himself, with a cleaner coming in once a fortnight. But, he does not always, even often, eat well. He has the capacity, but not the will to cook and even ready meals seem more effort than he is prepared to make quite often. He does get forgetful about conversations and we often go over the same stuff repeatedly - I'm not sure if that is just old age or the start of something more. I am confident he will no longer get himself to appointments, medical or otherwise. He has stopped driving, which is good, but could comfortably afford taxis. He just won't organise and motivate himself.

So, my brother and I have been talking to him about moving closer to us, with some sort of retirement apartment in mind. There is a lovely McCarthy and Stone one in a good location, which would provide a proper meal at lunch quite cheaply. Obviously, if he starts to need more support, that can be provided there, but will cost more. If he were there, he would see one or other of us probably 4 days a week - as opposed to us travelling up once a month each (although he does have a younger brother who also goes and sees him some weekends when my brother and I are not there).

It's been pretty stressful getting Dad to think about moving and bringing him to us to view the place, but he seems to be accepting it. But, we are now getting concerned about what we are getting into! Firstly, we can see the whole business is taking a toll on Dad and are starting to think he would be better in his own home if he will accept us arranging increased support. We don't mind the travelling. The other issue is the cost. He can afford the flat and the service charge so that is fine, but it turns out that when he moves on, theses flats often take a very long time to see and he/his estate is liable for the service charge and council tax until it is sold. Now we are very suppportive of him spending as much as he needs to on being comfortable, safe and looked after. But that sounds like money down the drain and quite a millstone around our necks.

Sorry - this has turned into an essay! But if anyone has any experience of McCarthy and Stone or similar, would you be willing to share?

Then that's what you do.
What's best and safest for your dad.
Brother has ulterior motives I suspect. I doubt he'll be the first on call.

That's what the capital is for. Your DB sounds very grasping.

My MIL is currently living beyond her income, because she pays for a care worker to come in every day, more for the social aspect than personal care. So she's slowly eating into her savings. That's fine by DH. He's an only child and isn't bothered about any potential inheritance. He's much more bothered about the fact she's the other end of the country and the Care worker is a godsend.

What would he use to buy the property?

Use that to pay the rent

Why the issue about eating into savings? These places are £££ and most people cannot afford out of income!

Definitely rent though at his age.

See whether you have an Abbeyfield nearby. Similar set up but run by a charity and you rent not buy.

We did look at renting, but it would be just over his monthly income to do so. That said, he has fairly significant savings, plus the value of his current house. Perhaps a renting and eating into those savings for his remaining years would be better than being landed with a property that we have to sell at a loss and pay charges on while trying to do so.

I would say that at his age that makes much more sense. He might well not be there for long if he's already showing signs of dementia, and the last thing you want is an apartment that takes years to sell at a significant loss, when he only moved there for a year or two before needing a care home.

I have two friends who inherited M&S apartments. One took two years to sell, the other three (and the latter at a horrific loss...I think about a third of the purchase price) while my friends continued to pay the high service charge for nothing.

Bro needs to be aware that he'll also lose his inheritance anyway, because it will be paying the service charge probably for years and the flat will sell for vastly less than his dad paid for it.

At least with rental he and OP won't be left with the stress of trying to sell it and not having access to what's left of their inheritance

VERY difficult to sell . And can be a total nightmare with service charges

Abbeyfield also has care homes, so can be a simpler move if he needs more care later.

The M&C place that's being built near my daughter's is for 70+ only.

When you think about that, the pool of potential buyers is even smaller. And it's not in a highly populated area at all. Quite rural. And M&C encourages new buyers to buy their new flats, not the ones being sold by family. And the buyers, having sold their homes, can afford to buy the nice shiny new ones.

One of my friends said that the managers at her late mum's block were actively making it difficult for people to view her mum's flat. They'd much rather get the money themselves for the ones they were selling and having her still pay the service fee on hers

A friend mum was in one. When she ended up moving to a care home it took them nearly 3 years to sell, then they sold it for about 80% of the original purchase price. So for 3 years her mum was paying service charges AND the care home fees.

I've never heard good things financially about these places . You will be stuck with it whilst wracking up service charges etc

Some horror stories in the press about these type of properties re. them being a money pit - eg £90 to change light bulb, huge service charges, taking 7 years to sell at a loss in one example etc.

Not sure what you mean about £90 to change a light bulb. I think as stated previously people get seduced into buying a brand new apartment at say mid to late 80's. This is a terrible idea. The second hand ones are beter value but NO ONE should be buying a property at mid 80's. Either stay in your own home with carers coming in constantly or consider one of these places. Staying in your own place is obviously ideal for YOU but your relatives might have something to say. A lot of the people I meet at the complex do say they didnt really want to move but son/daughter suggested it and although they state they coped just fine in their old place I bet they didnt and spent a lot of time leaning heavily on their children to support them in their own place, didnt want strangers in etc.

I remember a post a while ago about a women who had been run ragged by her Mother. Eventually after a few years this women was on the verge of a breakdown and was appointed POA after many years of trying to persuade parent to do it. She found that years previously SS had offered a lot of care and the sneaky Mother had refused it saying 'her daughter did it for her so no care needed'.

I have a parent in one (renting) and she really likes it. Much closer to me as opposed to 100's of miles away. She was struggling with her old place. Refused carers bevcause she didnt know what they would do....

SS had offered a lot of care and the sneaky Mother had refused it saying 'her daughter did it for her so no care needed'.

I see this a lot too and have concluded something happens to us all as we get older that changes how we view family help etc.

So many people, when young, insist they never want to be a burden to their children and will never ask them to help etc. And yet, when it comes to it, so many resist any external help and lean more and more on family - especially daughters.

Yes I agree with @TheDowdyQueen. My PILs were always very independent, didn't want to rely on help from family etc. Now my MIL is in her 80s and I'm amazed at her level of entitlement. She seems to expect so much from her son (my DH) and me, despite knowing that we have three DC, busy jobs etc. The retirement accommodation place has lifted that burden from us (while being massively cheaper than a residential care home).

So if he pays £240k for it and loses a third, that’s £80k, equivalent to 80 months or 6yrs 8months years of renting.

I see this a lot too and have concluded something happens to us all as we get older that changes how we view family help etc.

Yep. My gran lived with us when I was a child, and had dementia. It was tough, and my mum spent the next five decades telling us that we were never to feel that we had to look after her, and absolutely never take her in to live with us.

Then she had a massive disabling stroke and had to live in a care home. When her money ran out and the council had to decide what would happen next, she phoned my brother every single day, telling him that she wanted to move in with him and his wife, and that he 'owed her', and she told the council that that was the plan.

I actually reminded her of what she'd said all our lives but she just ignored me.
It was never going to happen because he has a tiny house and she needs hoists and a wet room etc, so there was no issue for him apart from the emotional blackmail. But it shows how things change when life turns to shit for an elderly person. In fairness her life was (and still is) miserable, so I have a certain amount of empathy.

When you google supported accommodation/retirement villages, the McCarthy and Stone properties dominate the search results. After those results, the next ones will be other private builders with similar models.

But as PP say, they’re not the only choices. I would take time to investigate other similar options. For example, we have one near us that is run as a charity, with a board of executives with experience in the sector. When it’s time to selling the property, you are only allowed to sell it back to them. You’ll find other ones with different models. It’s probably worth ringing local organisations such as Age Uk to help explore the different options.

One thing I would flag up though, is that the rent/service charge only covers the basics. As your dad’s needs change, he will then be charged for any extra care he needs. So you’ll end up paying carers fees on top of the other costs.

Whatsmore, if your dad’s health declines, almost all of these types of accommodation will move him out as they can’t meet his needs. At which point, the next step is probably a home. Indeed, you will have to go through quite a lot of health admin before you sign contracts to buy/rent.

Its great that he wants to move near you, but at 90 and with some cognitive decline (repetitive, trouble organising food, appointments etc), you may be best off trialling care in his current home in the first instance. Even an hour a day can be transformational. My parents were so reluctant to have carers in, but the impact on their life has been amazing. In all honesty, I would try to get that in place ASAP, regardless of decisions about moving. It’s really tempting to get lost in a rabbit hole, exploring big solutions, and end up not making a smaller change, such as a daily cater, that can be really impactful.

Good luck

My mum had a McCarthy & Stone apartment. We were lucky as it sold quickly when we needed to and we did not make a loss. However, I would think long and hard about ever buying one again as the service charges and the fee you had to pay upon selling it were extortionate. Given your father's age and the decline you mention, I wouldn't recommend it.

Buy a mainstream flat near you and get carers.

M & S offer a solution for older people at a price but then nothing comes cheap these days. We wanted my MIL to move to a M & S apartment but she wouldn’t hear of it. Instead she was very lonely, she was vulnerable, and the carers were awful. M&S would have given her security, friendship and whatever support she needed. When and if the time comes, I will be off to one of their apartments immediately. They will also buy your house and help you move, brilliant!

@Manyandyoucanwalkover You sound as if you work for them and doing their PR. My DF was absolutely miserable in his apartment. It wasn’t friendly so he was very lonely. Some of the residents were downright unpleasant. The woman below him was hysterical at him even walking quietly in his slippers round his flat. I don’t know what you mean by security as the warden was useless and for the astronomical service charges he got very little. He was lucky enough to sell and move into a new build where there were all age groups and there he really did have friendly neighbours who looked out for him and I was relieved to see him happy again.

Buying one of these retirement apartments is a waste of money and often difficult to sell. They don’t hold their value. A normal flat or house with carers is a much better option and having seen my DF’s experience, I would never recommend buying into one of these schemes.

We are looking at this with my mother. Similar set up although she is a bit younger at 81. Really I think she wants to stay in her own home but it’s a big rambling place that needs a lot of upkeep which is stressing her. It’s tough. I think the ideal is stay in own home with the right support - moving is a big upheaval at this age. It’s impossible to predict the future obvs- my dad died at 92, my aunt still going strong living by herself with minimal support at 101! I hear mixed things about M&S - is your dad sociable and looking for new networks? Good for that. But so £££ and if he needs to go into a home later cash is tied up. Moving to be nearer family is common but doesn’t always go well- middle aged kids busy with lives and a pop in daily might not compensate for less frequent but longer visits. Sorry for waffle with no solutions!

😂 I definitely don’t work for them!

We’ve had very poor experience of carers. It’s easy to say get carers in but have you actually tried to get a decent service for a loved one? Carers come in once or twice a day. The rest of the time your loved one is alone and fending for themselves. My MIL’s situation was a nightmare with this set up. She didn’t like any of the carers. Often the carer wouldn’t turn up. When they came they were always in a hurry and had no time. They did the very minimum. My MIL used to leave the front door open, ready for the carer to arrive. She was burgled twice.

Care for older people is expensive, no matter how you arrange it. There’s no point trying to arrange it based on costs.

Independent living, with everything in place, is a solution that companies like M & S offer. Its an option I would choose over carers or a care home.