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Elderly parents
Original poster

Fil jeopardising mil care home place

78 replies

MafaldaHopkirkRules · 18/01/2024 09:16

Hoping for advice. Mil has dementia and is at the stage she is incontinent and no idea of her name and who other people are, just a familiarity. Fil refused to get her diagnosed or any help until he became unwell last year. She had carers from the council but it wasn't enough.
Eventually last autumn fil had a fall and was hospitalized for a month and social services found Mil a home. The home said she was so bad she was moved somewhere more suitable not far from their home.
In the meantime fil was diagnosed with parkinson's and discharged from hospital. There house is unsuitable for both of them but he's determined to change nothing, stay there with no carers.
He's adamant that mil must come home. There's no lpoa and her social worker says this will not happen.
Sorry this is so long. However fil who shouldn't be driving as he's not informed the dvla that he has parkinson's is going to the home daily and taking her home and she gets very distressed.
The home called a meeting with the family, fil didn't come because it was too early!, and social services who said he can visit as much as he likes but he must only take her out of the home once a fortnight and accompanying by another family member. All seemed resolved.
Until last night when dp spoke to his dad and the same day as this meeting he went to the home and took mil back to his house for the afternoon.
If you've got this far, we're at our wits end. What is likely to happen? Will he be prevented from seeing her? Could she lose her place at this lovely home, council funded? And then what? Does anyone have similar experience? Tia

OP posts:
HowDoYouSolveAProblemLikeMyRear · 18/01/2024 09:18

No idea, but hoping someone will come along who's able to be more helpful. So sorry you're going through this. It must be incredibly stressful.

MereDintofPandiculation · 18/01/2024 09:26

If you haven’t already, inform DVLA of his Parkinsons and see if you can get the GP to do so still.

Smartiepants79 · 18/01/2024 09:26

How is he getting her out?
Someone needs to contact the DVLA about him driving.
What has any of his children actually said to him? Have they actually said ‘dad you can’t drive, dad you can’t take mum home’ ?
This all sounds awful, I’m sorry.

NutcrackerSweety · 18/01/2024 09:27

He must tell the dvla. But Has he been told he can no longer drive. Sorry no help on the rest. But he’s had an awful diagnosis and I’d be spiralling too, please be patient with him.

SquirrelBlue · 18/01/2024 09:27

That sounds incredibly stressful. If your mil's needs are met there, they'll certainly try to keep her there for her sake. Call the social worker and have a chat with them. The home will be able to provide their contact details if you don't have them.
I would have thought if anything, they'd be preventing him from taking her out and if it happened the same day as the meeting, the plan probably hadn't been put into place by then.
Regarding fil, if he shouldn't be driving, I'd see if you can notify the DVLA on his behalf. You know the diagnosis and the concerns. He'll be furious I imagine but it's better than him causing accidents.
I would also suggest someone trying to get POA for fil as he will likely need it in future. He'd need to agree which he might not but certainly I'd try to discuss it with him for the future.
Mil would need deputyship which I'd avoid if possible. if all her money etc is in fil's name, you shouldn't need it for her.

Wishitsnows · 18/01/2024 09:29

how is it up to the care home to decide he can only take her out once a fortnight?

StylishM · 18/01/2024 09:30

You need to report him to the DVLA and hide his keys. He's probably desperately unhappy at the thought of 'losing' his wife and her going into a home is likely to trigger his grief. You need to agree a visiting rota with the home and instruct them not to allow him to remove MIL from the home

Original poster
MafaldaHopkirkRules · 18/01/2024 09:36

We have informed the dvla weeks ago but heard nothing. All the children have told him. He knows the consequences but just ignores. We warned the home he would try to take her that day and were assured it wouldn't happen. It wasn't the homes decision to stop him taking her out more often, they have a duty of care and social services say he's a danger taking her out and its distressing her. She's very happy when she's in the home. Unfortunately she had a history of depression before dementia and says to fil that she wants to kill herself but we think a bit like her saying she's worried abher babies, that she's just going back to old emotions.

OP posts:
Crazycrazylady · 18/01/2024 09:40

Honestly I would ring the local
Community police officer and go and ask them to have a word. Often when I his generation this has more impact that anything you can say.

BoxOfCats · 18/01/2024 09:57

I'd stage an intervention and take his car keys.

RoseAndRose · 18/01/2024 10:05

MereDintofPandiculation · 18/01/2024 09:26

If you haven’t already, inform DVLA of his Parkinsons and see if you can get the GP to do so still.

Parkinsons is not an automatic bar to driving - he needs to be assessed, but it's possible he will keep his licence. I don't think that is the crux of the issue though.

If he still has capacity, then he can make any decision about himself, no matter how much someone might think it wrong.

But that does not extent to her, especially not now services are involved.

It does sound as though she was properly cared for at home before the fall - you didn't say that the home/shad concerns about her physical condition.

So might the right solution be for her to be at home with carers?

Original poster
MafaldaHopkirkRules · 18/01/2024 10:10

Living at home really wasn't working. The carers were unable to wash her as there was no shower so washing was basic. There are a lot of steps up and down to the house. The garden is steep. Between carer visits neighbours said she was wandering around. They live fairly rurally so the fact she was getting out was terrifying. Fil was asleep most of the day. It was like leaving a toddler alone. Also when she sundowned she became terrified of fil.

OP posts:
Original poster
MafaldaHopkirkRules · 18/01/2024 10:11

Also to add their house has a mould issue

OP posts:
saraclara · 18/01/2024 10:20

A pp is right. Parkinson's is not necessarily a reason not to drive. Especially if he's only just been diagnosed. My friend's husband has it (diagnosed two years ago) but at this stage his doctor said he's fine to drive.

Can you call the age UK helpline and ask their advice on how and if you can prevent him taking her home @MafaldaHopkirkRules ? They're absolutely excellent in my experience, and so well informed on the legalities etc.

Original poster
MafaldaHopkirkRules · 18/01/2024 10:25

The thing with fil is he mistrusts doctors and although he is newly diagnosed I think he is fairly well advanced with his symptoms. We aren't convinced he is taking his medicine. When he first came home he had carers or they wouldn't have allowed him to leave the hospital so initially he was taking it but after a couple of weeks he said he didn't need them anymore so they stopped coming. However yes it's possible he's capable of driving and should be assessed but none of this will change his removing mil back to their house and the trauma she feels when he brings her back to the home.

OP posts:
Horsemad · 18/01/2024 10:30

If your MIL has lost capacity & there is no Power of Attorney in place then the Social Services will do a 'best interests' meeting & decide she needs to be in a home.

They can also dictate (as they have done) re. the frequency your FIL can take MIL out.

Once this has been decided, the home need to implement it and stop him from leaving with her.

I would advise speaking with SS again & asking them to talk to the home.

Original poster
MafaldaHopkirkRules · 18/01/2024 10:34

I'm just concerned he will cause trouble trying to remove her and we have had to sign a contract saying that visitors will behave themselves. Hence the fear he could jeopardise her place. Sorry. This is just such a worry.

OP posts:
TomeTome · 18/01/2024 10:37

Why can’t she be in the home overnight and for washing etc and go home in the middle of the day? Surely a taxi back and forth could be justified?

saraclara · 18/01/2024 10:38

Does she have a DOLS (Deprivation of Liberty) in place? If so, I suspect that they can prevent him taking her.

It's a horrible situation for the home, but they will have her best interests at heart, and it's unlikely that she'll lose her place. But again, PLEASE call AgeUK's helpline. We and you are just speculating here @MafaldaHopkirkRules . They will be able to fill you in on what to do and what is legal.

Thisisnottheend · 18/01/2024 10:39

OP@MafaldaHopkirkRules it can be extremely distressing for couples married for many years to be separated so I can understand it from your FILs perspective. However you may want to request an assessment for him….often Parkinson’s itself is associated with cognitive problems so it may simply be hard for him to have the mental flexibility to understand what he should be doing in the best interests of his wife. Would there be any options of finding them a joint placement somewhere?or working towards encouraging him in that direction…as at least they’d be together.

RunnerDown · 18/01/2024 10:41

If there are no legal powers in place then no-one can prevent your fil taking your mil home at present. I don’t know about the English situation but in Scotland Sw or family could take out guardianship . Whoever became mil’s legal guardian would then make decisions about her welfare and could have the authority to prevent anyone removing mil from the home. It goes through the court and can take a long time to proceed for families. The local authority in Scotland can sometimes push things through more quickly( although my experience of this is from a few years ago)
I think the equivalent in the England is explained in the link below.

You need to put the risks in writing and make it clear to SW that your mil is at risk - they have a duty of care so ask them what they are going to do about it. Get them to arrange a formal case conference that’s minuted not a casual meeting .

Also there can be cognitive changes with Parkinson’s disease- frontal lobe changes and dementia. Has you fil had his capacity assessed - not by GP but by a specialist . This would be important to organise although it sounds like fil may not be very co-operative .

The DVLA will probably write to your FIL’s GP about his driving so if you have any concrete examples of poor driving then get them down in writing and passed to the GP.

What a difficult situation for you

https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/who-can-apply-deputy

Deputies: make decisions for someone who lacks capacity

How to become and act as a Court of Protection deputy - eligibility, responsibilities, how to apply, fees, supervision and when your deputyship ends.

https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/who-can-apply-deputy

Dalriadanland · 18/01/2024 10:41

I highly doubt she would lose her place in the home. Your dad could be experiencing a rigidity of thought that seems to be part of the condition sometimes. The GPs for both should be made aware. Ultimately the home and the SS are probably trying to avoid steps that they could take to stop your dad doing this because they may not want to bring out the big guns. They would rather you do it. I'm e your position I would say very firmly that you cannot stop him doing this so what are SS going to do to protect your mum as he clearly lacks capacity to look after her?

Original poster
MafaldaHopkirkRules · 18/01/2024 10:42

We have contacted age UK in the past when fil wouldn't access help for her and they didn't have an answer but obviously this is different

OP posts:
Tommcollins · 18/01/2024 10:42

I would contact the social work team again and raise it as a safeguarding issue. This will then have to go through a formal safeguarding process and they will have to come up with a solution to keep your MIL safe.