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Elderly parents

Court of protection deputyship

117 replies

rhetorician · 12/04/2023 15:49

hello - after much to-ing and fro-ing (I'll spare you the details which will be all too familiar to most of you) my mum is in discharge to assess waiting for a permanent residential placement. She is a self-funder (and her assets are quite significant, though her income is small) and I need to apply to the CoP for deputyship. This should be straightforward - she owns her house outright and I am her sole beneficiary and NOK. But I'm wondering if anyone knows how long the process might take? The issue is that until the order is granted I can't use the house to generate income and she will just be burning through her capital.

I guess I should also take some in the round financial advice, given that whilst she has dementia, she is otherwise fairly medically well for an 89 year old...

TIA

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rhetorician · 12/04/2023 15:54

Oh, and will the fact that I don't live in the UK be an issue? The forms all assume that you are resident (no box for country, etc)

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pickledandpuzzled · 12/04/2023 15:58

So she does live in the UK?

I know nothing, but can imagine finding myself in a similar position in future due to DM's refusal to consider PoA or any other sensible precautions.

Thanks

DPotter · 12/04/2023 16:02

I'm not sure how long - but I know it will cost you a pretty penny. We were going down the path of CoP for my MIL and were quoted £20-25k back in 2017 I think it was. If there is anyway you can avoid that I'd take it. Are Social Services involved ? I can't recall exactly how but they managed to sort of the payment for care home without CoP in the end.

Aged UK has an excellent finance section on their website and can put you in touch with financial experts who understand this situation.

Moral of the story to anyone else reading this - get Lasting Power of Attorney sort sooner rather than later for both health and finance.

Thanks

rhetorician · 12/04/2023 16:10

DPotter · 12/04/2023 16:02

I'm not sure how long - but I know it will cost you a pretty penny. We were going down the path of CoP for my MIL and were quoted £20-25k back in 2017 I think it was. If there is anyway you can avoid that I'd take it. Are Social Services involved ? I can't recall exactly how but they managed to sort of the payment for care home without CoP in the end.

Aged UK has an excellent finance section on their website and can put you in touch with financial experts who understand this situation.

Moral of the story to anyone else reading this - get Lasting Power of Attorney sort sooner rather than later for both health and finance.

Hmm. Really? The application fee is £371, but I didn't see reference on the website to other costs. Best look at that!!

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rhetorician · 12/04/2023 16:10

pickledandpuzzled · 12/04/2023 15:58

So she does live in the UK?

I know nothing, but can imagine finding myself in a similar position in future due to DM's refusal to consider PoA or any other sensible precautions.

Yes she does

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Oaktree55 · 12/04/2023 16:18

I have just applied in January for my severely disable Uncle. I used a solicitor (advisable as if you make an error you add significantly to the timescale). I was told to expect it to take approx a year (from their current experience with other clients). Lawyers fee was c£1000, psych assessment of my Uncle was £500 and Court fees c £300 its not cheap. I probably would have made a mistake had I attempted the paperwork alone so get a lawyer involved if you possibly can! Sorry not fast or cheap apparently huge post Pandemic back log.

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Oaktree55 · 12/04/2023 16:21

Also are you sure a Deputyship is what you mean? Obviously a Deputy must act in the persons best interest (not the Deputy's) you mention making an income. I am not sure if you mean for you or her but all financial benefit must obviously be for the incapacitated person. I don't think there is any movement on this at all.

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Oaktree55 · 12/04/2023 16:26

Oh my Uncle is very very severely disabled (far more so than dementia) and had a previous Deputyship in place but the lawyer still said we need a psych assessment for the Court even though his disability is known to GP etc etc. It really is belt and braces in the application process to prevent further delays past 12 months!

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HappyHamsters · 12/04/2023 16:26

Has she had a capacity assessment, they will need this if you or the CoP have to act on her behalf. Can the social worker help find a suitable carehome who offer deferred payments so that she pays with her capital until she has more money once the house is sold. Has she also had a financial assessment which covers things like attendance allowance and fnc which is a contribution towards her nursing care costs if she needs that level of care. How is her house being used to generate income? is it being rented out?

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rhetorician · 12/04/2023 16:27

Oaktree55 · 12/04/2023 16:21

Also are you sure a Deputyship is what you mean? Obviously a Deputy must act in the persons best interest (not the Deputy's) you mention making an income. I am not sure if you mean for you or her but all financial benefit must obviously be for the incapacitated person. I don't think there is any movement on this at all.

Yes - sorry put that badly. I mean that I need to let the house in order to generate income to pay for her care, and can't do that as i have no legal basis on which to do it. In the meantime, her savings will have to be used, which if the timescale is a year or more really isn't great. Plus the fact that the house will be empty...

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feebal · 12/04/2023 16:28

You do not need to use a solicitor. The forms are very straightforward. The errors can come in with the order of the signatures but to get around that just make sure they are all signed on the same day. You do not need to be in the UK to be a deputy. The application process is taking around a year at the moment.

Thanks

rhetorician · 12/04/2023 16:29

HappyHamsters · 12/04/2023 16:26

Has she had a capacity assessment, they will need this if you or the CoP have to act on her behalf. Can the social worker help find a suitable carehome who offer deferred payments so that she pays with her capital until she has more money once the house is sold. Has she also had a financial assessment which covers things like attendance allowance and fnc which is a contribution towards her nursing care costs if she needs that level of care. How is her house being used to generate income? is it being rented out?

Yes, that's all been done - SW handled all this, plus memory clinic assessment which will go to the court. She has had financial assessment - I applied for attendance allowance at lower level when she was still at home but this will go up to higher level now - but needs permanent placement for that I think. AA was granted - just saw the back payment credited to her account.

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Oaktree55 · 12/04/2023 16:31

OK someone has contradicted my advice on using a lawyer. I really really would recommend this strongly with the current delays, as a mistake will cause even further delays once your docs are looked at. I was advised this by many people (not just those looking to get money in fees)! If you have the money it's money well spent!

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rhetorician · 12/04/2023 16:31

feebal · 12/04/2023 16:28

You do not need to use a solicitor. The forms are very straightforward. The errors can come in with the order of the signatures but to get around that just make sure they are all signed on the same day. You do not need to be in the UK to be a deputy. The application process is taking around a year at the moment.

Thanks - I have started the forms (I think they streamlined the process recently), including sending the notifications off. Will do mum's notification when I see her next week; the assessment of capacity form can be completed either by SW or by team who have done memory assessment who I'll do a virtual meeting with in the next week or so.

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DPotter · 12/04/2023 19:15

There were all sorts of problems with my MIL's estate - hence the higher fees.

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pickledandpuzzled · 12/04/2023 19:28

What happens in the meantime, can anyone explain?
DM is resisting PoA, if she were to lose capacity without warning, what could we do? What would we be able to do on her behalf?
What would happen to her?

Sorry, should I start another thread?

Thanks

Mosaic123 · 12/04/2023 19:29

An empty house needs special insurance and usually to be visited once a week as a condition of insurance. If you don't have anyone willing to do this you may have to pay a letting agent.

We had to keep the heating on at 10C and 24/7 as one of the terms of the insurance.

Thanks

MMAMPWGHAP · 12/04/2023 19:47

I have the same terms on the inson my mum’s empty house

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Soontobe60 · 12/04/2023 19:50

feebal · 12/04/2023 16:28

You do not need to use a solicitor. The forms are very straightforward. The errors can come in with the order of the signatures but to get around that just make sure they are all signed on the same day. You do not need to be in the UK to be a deputy. The application process is taking around a year at the moment.

I think youre confusing a Deputyship with power of attorney. I helped my MIL apply for POA and yes, it was straightforward. I attempted to complete an application for Deputyship for my stepfather and its very complex!

OP, I am using a solicitor, and she has quoted 2K approx, which will also include changing my Stepfather as a trustee to one of the solicitors, so we can sell the house (which was left to him and myself / siblings by my mum)
So far the process has taken 5 months - the forms were submitted just before Christmas. The forms required other people to complete reports - he has a DOLs and his mental health nurse had to complete some of it, plus his GP and the care home manager. I had to give details of all interested parties - so my siblings and his remaining family, they were written to and had 28 days (I think) to respond.

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JennyMule · 12/04/2023 19:53

Hi, the time estimate of a year from application to receipt of the order is realistic in my experience although the new "upfront notification" process is helping streamline things somewhat. Costs that you must pay are court fee (£371) and once the order is granted there's an annual OPG supervision fee (c£100) and you will also need to buy a type of insurance (against the risk of you making errors and mismanaging/losing money when acting as deputy) called the security bond - you will be sent info about this at the relevant time. If you choose to use a solicitor they'll typically charge around £1500-2000 plus Vat and disbursements for making the application for you, but if you are confident with forms and have time it's probably quicker for you to go down the DIY route (solicitor doing my profession out of business, here!)
Until you are able to access your mother's finances and enter into a contract for her care with a care home the local authority has a legal duty to contract for her care and pay the bills until you are able to reimburse using mum's money (called "an accrual.") If your mum has the means to afford a care home that is "more expensive" ie charges more than the LA standard rate (very low, less than self funders pay) and your mum (or you) want a more expensive care home you may be able to negotiate that they'll place her in a more costly home on the basis full reimbursement will eventually be forthcoming. Strangely in the world of care homes more expensive isn't necessarily the same as better - the absolute key thing is staffing - numbers and attitude thereof!
Good luck to you all at a very difficult time.

Thanks

rhetorician · 12/04/2023 20:20

JennyMule · 12/04/2023 19:53

Hi, the time estimate of a year from application to receipt of the order is realistic in my experience although the new "upfront notification" process is helping streamline things somewhat. Costs that you must pay are court fee (£371) and once the order is granted there's an annual OPG supervision fee (c£100) and you will also need to buy a type of insurance (against the risk of you making errors and mismanaging/losing money when acting as deputy) called the security bond - you will be sent info about this at the relevant time. If you choose to use a solicitor they'll typically charge around £1500-2000 plus Vat and disbursements for making the application for you, but if you are confident with forms and have time it's probably quicker for you to go down the DIY route (solicitor doing my profession out of business, here!)
Until you are able to access your mother's finances and enter into a contract for her care with a care home the local authority has a legal duty to contract for her care and pay the bills until you are able to reimburse using mum's money (called "an accrual.") If your mum has the means to afford a care home that is "more expensive" ie charges more than the LA standard rate (very low, less than self funders pay) and your mum (or you) want a more expensive care home you may be able to negotiate that they'll place her in a more costly home on the basis full reimbursement will eventually be forthcoming. Strangely in the world of care homes more expensive isn't necessarily the same as better - the absolute key thing is staffing - numbers and attitude thereof!
Good luck to you all at a very difficult time.

Thank you - this is incredibly helpful. I am happy to do it myself - the situation is straightforward as I am the only person involved, and luckily my mother was - before dementia - a very organised person wrt to finances, so everything is filed away and labelled. The only issue is a few things (an investment fund, national saving bond) that I don't have up to date information on - one the last statement is 2009, though there's correspondence from 2019, suspect that they moved everything on line and mum didn't trust online for money matters. But by 2019 she was no longer engaged with her finances, so I imagine those funds still exist and may be larger than I realise. BUT having said all that, there is enough money that I can access to keep her going for a year or two, adding in her income. However, she would be annoyed with me for just spending her money in this way - to which I would answer, well, should have given me POA then!!

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MereDintofPandiculation · 12/04/2023 20:28

Mosaic123 · 12/04/2023 19:29

An empty house needs special insurance and usually to be visited once a week as a condition of insurance. If you don't have anyone willing to do this you may have to pay a letting agent.

We had to keep the heating on at 10C and 24/7 as one of the terms of the insurance.

Not necessarily as often as once a week. I had the choice of keeping heating on at 15deg 24/7 or turning off the water and draining the system

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rhetorician · 13/04/2023 11:33

The online quote I've received asked for an documented internal inspection once a month, which sounds ok, given that I have made a commitment in my deputyship application to visit mum once a month.

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SheilaFentiman · 15/04/2023 08:24

Why do you want to let the house rather than sell it?

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SheilaFentiman · 15/04/2023 08:28

Is it in a rentable condition eg ok decor, electrics all right etc?

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