Court of protection deputyship

[rhetorician]

hello - after much to-ing and fro-ing (I'll spare you the details which will be all too familiar to most of you) my mum is in discharge to assess waiting for a permanent residential placement. She is a self-funder (and her assets are quite significant, though her income is small) and I need to apply to the CoP for deputyship. This should be straightforward - she owns her house outright and I am her sole beneficiary and NOK. But I'm wondering if anyone knows how long the process might take? The issue is that until the order is granted I can't use the house to generate income and she will just be burning through her capital.

I guess I should also take some in the round financial advice, given that whilst she has dementia, she is otherwise fairly medically well for an 89 year old...

TIA

OP, I’m so sorry that the thread has left you feeling shitty. It’s a no win situation and I think it sounds like you’re doing a brilliant job in difficult circumstances. It’s so hard when what a person wants is impossible.

I don’t know enough about the law to advise. It sounds like your dm no longer has capacity and so it’s too late for a PoA? My grandmother managed to get PoA in place when the GP said it was ‘borderline’ because the GP knew it would create endless problems not having that in place.

Does the place where your mum is currently living have a social worker who can help guide you through this process?

And whilst I don’t have enough experience to advise on the court of protection side, I’d seriously consider whether it’s in your mum’s best interests for you to move her to Ireland, where you will be able to make short, regular visits and oversee her care. Especially as you say she is unlikely to get any other visitors. Managing this from abroad is going to be extremely difficult and having her only relative close by might be the best thing you could do for her. She’s unlikely to leave the home much so sadly won’t know where she is very shortly.

Yes key issue is that she no longer has capacity. But expresses a desire not to be in the care home, that she can cope (when she can't) and that she wants to go home. As you can imagine, having to go against her expressed wishes in order to act in her best interest feels pretty terrible. She cannot dress without help; she cannot prepare a meal; she cannot manage personal hygiene; she is not reliably continent; she is unable to recall new information. By the time she left her house she was wandering and distressed at night; kept losing her keys; could not turn on the tv, could not make a phone call. She clearly cannot stay at home.

I can look into moving her here - it does involves layers of complexity (for starters, she doesn't have a PRSI number - equivalent of NI number). Funding wise, the system here doesn't work if the key asset is not in the state (the fair deal scheme); health services are even more stretched etc etc.

The upshot is that there is no "right" answer. On balance, I think if the home she is currently is has a permanent place, that will be the best option. I then need to apply to court of protection for deputyship as she cannot now agree to POA in order to administer her finances to pay for her care, either via selling the house, or letting it, etc. Sin e

OP, I understand the guilt, my dad had to
have things “taken away” (driving license, letting him walk to the shops) when he didn’t know why and that’s a fraction of what you are feeling.

it sounds to me very much like you are acting in her best interests and you still have to balance the rest of your life, job etc.

good luck and I hope she can stay in the home where she is now.

Would the potential rent fully cover the care home fees? If not and if she doesn't have much other capital you need to be careful. You would need to give the tenant notice well before your mum is going to run out of funds but even if the tenant is in a rolling contract and you give them the 2 months notice there is no guarantee that they will actually leave in 2 months.

My mother also had dementia and no POA so I had to be a deputy. Make sure you keep good records of any money you spend on your mother's behalf. There was a yearly report that i had to complete for my mum where i had to account for every penny spent.

Yes. I think the rental option may be more trouble than it's worth. I might be better off selling the house and buying an annuity. And just keeping the capital in the bank until/in case she needs it

Thanks - that's what I assumed was needed from the accompanying notes etc which make reference to yearly accounts and report, and also to a supervisor if you've not acted as a deputy before. It's good that these quite strong safeguards are in place.

You asked about timescales. It can be as little as 12 weeks from application to order in very straightforward simple cases where notifications are carried out quickly but that's very rare in my experience. Queries about Dols from the court and objections can stretch things out as well as backlogs.

If you need to access funds in the meantime contact your DM's bank. If it's NatWest they have a CoP team. They may allow release of funds to pay care costs direct to the provider and other necessary costs upon invoice.

Hi OP

If you start a thread about an elderly parent, you can trigger people's own issues and attitudes and sometimes get scolded for it.

I'm in a very similar situation to you, not with the Deputyship because I have Lasting Power of Attorney but in many of the other aspects. I'm sorry, I don't know anything further about Deputyships, PP have had more info.

You have done everything right. You have seen that your DM has had all the assessments needed and is going through the system as needed. You are doing this because you want to not because you have a statutory duty to, unlike all these other agencies.

You are very much taking your DM's interests into account, there's no such thing as perfect 'best interests', everything is a compromise. What is very much in your DM's best interest is having a sane and functioning daughter who can advocate in important circumstances and visit her, and in order to do that you need her to be somewhere you can visit without more stress than necessary. You have zero obligation to have her live near you either, and it seems where she currently lives is ideal because she's always lived there and other people could visit too and you yourself can get there, be less stressed by ease of travel and supportive friends in what would otherwise be a lonely situation. I do the same, and I wouldn't listen to random outside opinions on it. Everyone professionally involved with my DM is very supportive of me doing the same as you propose.

I have never had any professional be anything other than grateful for all the admin and money I have sorted out and for the arrangements I've made for my DM. No-one has ever asked me to prove what I am spending money on or making arrangements about. The only time any such thing would come into consideration is when my DM finally runs out of money, on a similar timescale to yours, so I keep decent accounts (there was a period when she had capacity to make broad financial decisions, she doesn't have much idea now). I'm responsible with my DM's money, I make my best judgements that spending on particular things will help her, by far the biggest cost, dwarfing all others, is the care home, and I don't worry about some auditor looking over my shoulder. I do my best to ensure the care home she lives in is fulfilling their role, and others who have a hand in her care. That's a lot. It would not be in my DM's interests for me to hand over POA to her solicitor, stop visiting, wash my hands. I could and no-one would want me to do any of that, so they're happy my needs are met too.

I would not hang on to the house, though, I would let it go when you're able. It's also possible as you know to get an attachment on the property to pay care fees, my DM's local council would have done this. The restrictions and pitfalls of letting, especially being a non-professional absentee landlord, could be very stressful. The income generated would be nowhere near what care costs and you'd likely have to do work to bring it up to regs, not to mention the paperwork, regs, maintenance and angst of bad tenants even if you're paying an agency. I would sell it and lock the money in the highest-interest account possible: interest rates are normalising higher than they used to be. You could get advice from a reputable IFA.

Good luck, get support from people who are on your side.

What a lovely post @BinaryDot

I completely agree with PP... you are doing the very best you can in difficult circumstances. Mine were/are similar, with another complication of having to get the Deputyship recognised in a foreign country in order to become joint account-holder with my dad on his bank account there (he couldn't move it to the UK as he doesn't have enough current ID!) That in itself has various tax implications and I cheerfully do all the paperwork (I'm registered to do that with HMRC, something else you might need to do; get lots of certified copies of the deputyship order before sending any off to financial institutions).

The annuity doesn't cover all of his care home fees, and we're running down capital on a similar time-scale (he'll be fine until he's a bit over 100). All the professionals I come into contact with are, like @BinaryDot, nothing but thankful that I'm doing all of this.

The current twist of the knife is that he doesn't recognise me or the family any more and gets agitated/distressed by visits. So it's in his best interests for me just to keep in touch with the care home staff (he's deaf as a post so phone is out). I try hard not to see this as a failing on my part.

Good luck!

Thank you - it's so tough isn't it? So much complex stuff to sort out, and hoping that you're doing the right things. I did try to explain to her about 10 years ago that POA was the way to go, especially given that I would be operating across jurisdictions, but it fell on deaf ears, unfortunately.

Thank you - that's very kind of you. Yes, all I meant about the friends thing (I only have about 2 friends in London now I haven't lived there since I was 18) was that being able to have a cup of coffee with someone after these sometimes bleak and emotionally tough visits might be welcome, given that I've no siblings or cousins to decompress with.

I have had nothing but excellent support from everyone involved in mum's care - she was in fact sent to discharge to assess by the liaison social worker in the hospital - despite the fact that she thinks that I put her in the home. They all agree that she needs full time care now.

I have to say I am coming to the same conclusion about the house - it would also need a good bit of upgrading to be in letting condition (it's sound but decor is dated, appliances old etc) which would also be an additional cost. And there are tax implications, and as someone else pointed out, I would have trouble giving notice to tenants in time if I needed to put it on the market. I'm talking to a financial advisor about what it would be best to do with sale proceeds.

I do really appreciate you taking the time to post. Thank you - and good luck with your own situation too

It really is <I have something in my eye>

I would just reiterate that even though there is a Deputyship in place for my uncle already (my dad but he's too old now) I was still advised to get a Psychiatric Report for my uncle even though he cannot talk and is extrememly mentally disabled and all of this is obviously on his medical notes. I think the advice is belt and braces approach will deter any further delays to a process which is currently taking 12 months with Court of Protection. If there is any grey area at all as to whether the person in question has capacity I would be extremely hesitant about not paying for a specific assessment. You may be ok but it may well not be depends if you can afford the potential delays.

Thank you. When I've seen the social worker report and the conclusions of the memory clinic assessment then I will review what's needed. It's so hard, especially when her mood and ability to absorb and retain information is so variable - and much improved in her new environment too.

Does anyone know what would happen if the Court of Protection says no? Could I be in massive trouble for setting up (if bank permits) a direct debit for care home?

Why do you think the court will say no? If they accept that your mother lacks capacity to manage her own financial affairs then somebody needs to be appointed.

Although you aren't supposed to set anything up without authority you are probably unlikely to find anyone willing to take any action against you if your actions are in your mothers interest.

From what I hear, it’s easier to get a finance Deputyship than health and welfare. The Court of Protection tends to think decisions about health and welfare can be made in best interests, as the need arises. (I am in the process of applying for Deputyship for health and welfare myself)

Yes, I'm not applying for health and welfare and I think she has made her views on this very clear to me over the years. And there's no one to contest these.

Not really - the evidence that will go to the court will be a bit contradictory - e.g. the financial MCA done by the social worker she says clearly that I manage her money by private arrangement and she is happy for me to continue. But when I did the official notification process she said she wasn't happy, although next day when asked again she accepted it as necessary if not actually desirable. I've no external document that thinks she has capacity (DOLS, SW, memory clinic)...just having a wobble about the enormity of it all I think!

Unless things have changed recently you don't notify anyone formally until your application has been 'issued' by the court. Do you have a COP 3 form completed by GP, Social worker or other approved professional?

Hello - COP3 currently with social worker, but have her MCA report to accompany application. Unless I'm reading website wrong you have to notify the subject of the application and three other people?

It may well have changed as I’ve been out of adult care for a few years but previously you had to live in the uk to act as the deputy

Well if so I am screwed...