Court of protection deputyship

[rhetorician]

hello - after much to-ing and fro-ing (I'll spare you the details which will be all too familiar to most of you) my mum is in discharge to assess waiting for a permanent residential placement. She is a self-funder (and her assets are quite significant, though her income is small) and I need to apply to the CoP for deputyship. This should be straightforward - she owns her house outright and I am her sole beneficiary and NOK. But I'm wondering if anyone knows how long the process might take? The issue is that until the order is granted I can't use the house to generate income and she will just be burning through her capital.

I guess I should also take some in the round financial advice, given that whilst she has dementia, she is otherwise fairly medically well for an 89 year old...

TIA

Maybe a good idea to start another thread,?

Partly because it's what mum would do; partly because she is in decent physical health and may need care for some years. This way the house generates income towards her care and the asset is protected. Would you sell then? I can't think of any way I'm aware of to invest the money i a way that would even counter inflation

It would need a bit of tlc - paint, good clean, new appliances, but it's basically sound, yes

Also, I would in an ideal world like to keep a property in London - even if a flat rather than a house, as there's is no way on God's earth that my kids will be able to afford a house there when they grow up.

It's emotionally hard, but an alternative rather depends on your mum's life expectancy. In a very similar position, I sold the house and bought him an annuity. He's proving very long-lived so and we've "broken even" on the annuity cost, but everyone's situation is different.

Renting the house out might have proved better, I'll admit, but there were additional complications (the property is overseas) and the tax situation was already complex enough for me.

Renting sounds sensible to me if the money adds up. We did have a significant problem there as the nursing home we chose for Mum wanted 3 years' fees in cash in the bank before they would consider accepting her. However a) you may have that anyway b) I think to some extent they decided they'd underestimated her needs and didn't want to take her c) her interim placement broke down so dramatically that nowhere in the county would take her, so it all became moot.

But what your kids would want isn't relevant. It's your mum's house, her money, and her care costs that matter. Deputies must act in the best interests of the person whose affairs they're managing. You need to put any idea of 'preserving assets for your kids' out of your head completely.

Signature orders aren't particularly relevant for deputyship applications. You're thinking of powers of attorney. Very different process.

Yes mum has enough money in investments etc plus her small income to keep her going for two years in any case. I suppose my logic is that I don't necessarily need to sell right away - I do need to get some advice I think about tax implications of renting. I don't live in the UK either, but I'm also not that far away and will need to visit mum once a month in any case.

So, with renting:

• do you know if the amount of rent would cover the care home fees, less agency fees (which may be high given you aren’t in the country for things like replacing a washing machine)?
• are there savings to cover any void period, when the house is between tenants?
• tax wise, I believe the income would go to your mum and be taxed (less expenses like landlord insurance) at her usual rate (probably basic rate, unless her pension and investment income is pretty high). Again, this needs to be factored in to how much income she will actually get to cover care costs

Whilst you can take what you know to be her wishes into account, ultimately, if it is against her best interests to rent rather than sell the house or it is impossible for you to arrange from overseas, then I don’t think you would have any obligation to do this.

Also, will she be in a care home in London? I appreciate this may well be the easiest for visiting but also probably the most expensive place to be :-(

Yes, she will. I take your point, but I just don't have the time or bandwidth to look into options elsewhere - plus at least in London there's a slim possibility that someone other than me might occasionally visit her. She's lived in London all her life and is now close to where her parents and sisters are buried and that matters to her. Realistically she isn't going to run out of money unless she lives to be 100.

Ah, fair enough and completely understandable. It must be so hard for you doing this from abroad

I can't help with deputyships but ordinary POAs take a while

We prepared ours in December and sent them off in January fully signed (and checked as we used a will/POA writer). After about 2 weeks the OPG cashed the fee cheques. Then a couple of weeks later formal letters were sent out advising of the application and giving three months to complain! So, we are assuming nothing then happens for 3 months. I can see it being nearly 6 by the time it's all in place! Pleased I started when I was 60!

For ordinary POAs we paid £120 each - we had financial and health done so £240 per person

To be perfectly honest, if your mum is concerned about where her care home is located, then does she not still have some capacity? In which case, applying for Deputyship isn’t appropriate.
However, if she does meet the criteria for Deputyship, then without sounding crass, where she lives would be irrelevant. I would be looking at somewhere that is suitable for her, but also suitable for yourself to visit regularly. My stepfather could be in the middle of nowhere as far as he knows and can understand. When he was more aware, he said he wanted to live in Scotland where he came from. He lives no where near Scotland but is happy because he THINKS he does.

She isn't - but London is convenient for me and easy to reach from Dublin with multiple options airport wise - and that reduces cost for me also. Together with that, at least in London I know a few people and can meet up when I visit mum (realistically about an hour and half each visit is as much as either of us can do). If I move her out of London, I may as well move her here - which I'm not keen to do for a whole host of reasons (cost being uppermost).

Definitely meet the criteria - not one person who has dealt with her since last hospital admission (late Feb) has suggested for a moment that there is any doubt about her not having capacity. So I am inferring I guess from things she says and what I know of her over our very long relationship that she would prefer to stay in London?

I should say - thank you all for these responses - really helpful for me to try and work through all the angles in terms of the decisions that lie ahead - I really appreciate it

Good luck it's hard.

My Dad's is done too as POAs. It's hard although it's good she has the funds to support herself at a place of her or her loved ones choice for a significant period.

Currently I'm supporting Dad from afar and although he's OK at moment I worry about every call he initiates as it always starts "Ker, I need some help..."

I don't agree with this.

• someone can have capacity to make some decisions but not others.
• If someone doesn't have capacity, the person supporting decisions made on their behalf should be making them in their best interest and along the lines of what that person is likely to have chosen should he have been making the decision themselves.
• if the OPs mum has friends / family in London who will be able to visit here, then of course she should be supported to remain there so she can maintain those relationships.

should be making them in their best interest and along the lines of what that person is likely to have chosen should he have been making the decision themselves. Those two aren’t necessarily compatible.

There is some advantage to the main relative being able to visit more often. Moving her closer so you can visit more often seems to me to be in her interest, moving her to where you have friends you can visit at the same time is in your interest not hers.

And that is what "best interests" means.
Of course it's not likely you'd be able to follow the persons wishes to the letter due to a finances, practicalities etc. But you must follow the "essence" , for want of a better word, if you can.

It does sound like you have a complex intertwining of your Mum's interests and your own. You really do need to look at what is in your Mum's best interests rather than what would convenience you, benefit your children, or make visits to her more enjoyable for you.

I think that's fair, but I would say that I also have to balance off what I can do - I live 700 miles away (a minimum 7 hours door to door); I have a demanding job; I have two school aged children, one of whom has ASD/ADHD; I am my mother's only living relative. There is literally no one else to support me or help me with any of these decisions - which is kind of why I'm on here!! I slightly resent the implication that I would not act in her best interest! I've never done anything else.

I think if she was able to choose for herself, she would choose to stay local - not least because there are a small number of friends and neighbours who could visit. She would also choose to let the house.

I would also say that she is on a temporary placement in a home in which she is settled and content - she can afford it, so why would I move her unless there was a very good reason?

@Lougle my interests and hers are intertwined - she is my only living blood relative, and I hers!