Argumentative mother - find it awkward to be around her

[BlueberryBuffin]

Hi,
I'm not sure this is the right board, my DM is in her 70s. It's not an AIBU so much as techniques/support I need!

I live a few hours away from DM so don't see her much. But when I do I find her very argumentative if that's the right word.

Eg if we're talking about car seats for my DC she'll say they never had car seats in her day and everyone was fine. But I know if I had said car seats are a waste of money, why do we even bother she'd be outraged we wouldn't get one.

Eg I gave my DC plain yogurt mixed with fruit but some spoonfuls were just yogurt, some had more fruit. She made a face and said that yogurt was awful stuff, how could baby even eat it.

Eg we were talking about baby names, not my DC , just general conversation. Say the name "Doris" came up. I said Doris is not very popular these days for babies. She said well she knows three old ladies called Doris.

I say I'm going to buy X for myself. She says well why would you not buy Y?

I know these examples sound petty but it's most of the time . And it's her tone is challenging. Then I feel if I reply "yes but your 3 Doris examples are not newborn babies, they're 80 years old" or "well DC seems to be eating this yogurt just fine" or "I'm buying X because I prefer it to Y" then I sound like I'm the one being argumentative. And it also leaves scope for another comment from DM like "well she might be eating that yogurt but I'm sure she'd prefer a strawberry one, the poor child"

So I sit like a plank and say very little which is awkward and unfortunate.

If she has visitors (eg neighbours) she then complains about them afterwards and rolls her eyes at them saying AB or C.

My siblings seem to manage but they can be argumentative themselves. I'm not sure what I'm asking - maybe techniques to handle this that would allow me not to sit like a statue? And to want to spend time there?

At the moment my DM does not need care but would like company but as time goes by I'm sure she'll need more.

[Rinkydinkydoodle]

OP I read this thread with some laughs and a bit of sadness too. This is bloody wearing and even nerve-wracking at times. Oppositional conversationalists. Lots of good thoughts on here, and comforting to know it’s actually pretty common.

I have recently had to start suggesting to DS how to politely field this sort of stuff from a persistently over-argumentative older relative. Since DS got older and has a worldview and a life of his own he’s coming in for it as well and it’s getting awkward and noticeable. Part of me wants to say ‘Och could you not give it a rest and leave the boy alone.’ Some people are brilliant at ‘hmmm’ but teenagers tend not to be. I avoid confrontation if it can be avoided, and even if I do tackle it privately sometime, I also want DS to show manners and kindness, even when I’m not sure it’s reciprocated. think it’s the advancing age and possibly diminishing faculties of our non-stop arguer that’s both causing this tedious behaviour and making it impossible to call out.

One further strategy aside from the many excellent ones suggested here, I observed from my mum, who had years of dealing with this herself:


Me: no babies are called Doris these days
DM: I know three Dorises
Me: whennnn I was jusssst a little girl I asked my mother - what would I BEEEEEEE🎶

Spontaneous, joyous song about a tenuously connected subject is a belter. Extra points for a tiny tincture of cheek, but only if there’s 100% plausible deniability 😂 Also winners: firing the mixer on, washing the dishes with alacrity and racket, suddenly noticing you could be doing with cleaning your shoes, right now, in the next room. At Christmas DD and I got the old hand-whisk and a cocktail shaker simultaneously on the go at one sticky juncture, while singing Shake Rattle and Roll. Tiring for me over a weekend but also hard to niggle at They Who Just Cannot Quite Hear.

[Speedweed]

@Polecat03

Just a quick post of solidarity after having read everyone's own experiences of a mother like this - I recognise so much in all that you've each shared. That brings its own comfort.

Sympathy to all who have to navigate this type of relationship - I'm often so defeated, saddened and exhausted by it - after all, it seems entirely pointless most of the time - the most successful this relationship can be is 'not rocking the boat'. No closeness, I don't feel known or heard, I've merely fulfilled my obligation to visit and chased some nagging guilt away til next week.

@BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood Your accounts of your mother I could have written word for word myself. Hugs to you.

Polecat, you've hit the nail on the head about why my relationship with my mother (who is also exactly like those described here), makes me feel so sad. Just that little tweak to her conversational style and the relationship would be transformed - it's tragic that her aggressive and contrary assertions are what hold us back from a deeper connection.

[OrderOfTheKookaburra]

My DM can be like this. I tend to respond with a question back. The type of question usually depends on how much she has annoyed me.

"Why don't you buy boots?" - "what do I need boots for?" Or a nicer "Have you seen any nice boots around?"(nice version works better if you're sure she's not going to then hunt high and low for boots!!)

[Highjinks01]

My Mum is exactly the same. Less so with me, as she knows I will challenge her and she doesn’t like that. She is awful to my stepdad though; just constantly critical and contrary. She will argue the most minute detail, the other day it was because he’d called something macaroni cheese when the pasta was clearly bigger than macaroni! She nitpicks every detail, interrupts him to correct him. She makes barbed comments all the time and can suck the joy out of everything. If you challenge this, as I do, or laugh at her she will leap to the defensive and say she’s being criticised for no reason; “it’s pick on Mum day now is it?” This, after hours of policing behaviour! She will tell my stepdad off for nodding off after lunch, pointing or gesturing when speaking, having too much food, asking her to pass something “just wait!”, crossing his arms, slouching…. The poor man is so henpecked and god help him if he snaps back. She can be so incredibly kind and loving though and I can see how much this dichotomy has shaped me and my personality. I know it comes from her lack of self esteem- it’s blindingly obvious when you look at her upbringing. My DP’s Mum is vicious in her criticism of almost everyone. They haven’t met yet- 5 years on and we can’t face it!
Solidarity to us all- I honestly thought it was just me navigating life with a parent like this!

[Catspyjamas17]

My dad was like this- always, to a degree, not an age thing. My reaction to it varied from shrugging it off, changing the subject, challenging him light-heartedly to full on blazing rows if what he said really wound me up. Memorably, a blazing row about the merits or otherwise of Aldi and Lidl (he was against them purely because they are German basically).

It's a shame because he was fundamentally a good person - a rock and also basically kind, loyal, loving and soft hearted - under the curmudgeonly carapace!

I think this attitude in him came from several things. Developing a tough exterior after losing his mum in his teens, and a lot of his hopes and dreams coming to nothing (he should have been a professional footballer really, but his dad wouldn't let him).

Some basic insecurity/lack of confidence/lack of experience. Protectiveness/self-protection. Possibly untreated depression and anxiety and buried trauma.

Bloody frustrating though isn't it? I really sympathise, OP. What's that quote? "I go to therapy to deal with people who won't go to therapy."

My dad died in 2019, mum and I always talk about him. Often when watching football "Imagine what your dad would've said about that."

[AltheaVestr1t]

@Seaweed42

Just one theory....

Could it make sense that she is very needy for your attention when you are in the room with her?

Whatever is taking your attention gets in the way of your attention being focused solely on her. And that annoys her.

Therefore, rather than get angry with you for turning your attention away from her, she gets angry with the thing/topic/opinion that you are currently holding.

Therefore any you say you like, she is jealous of that and needs to insult that?
So if you say 'oh I see this lovely cream kettle here on the Argos website!'
She says 'what do you want cream for? Cream is a stupid colour for a kettle!'

This is the same tactic I used on the children when they were small and asked endless questions about everything. The content of the question (usually 'why?') isn't important, it just means 'I want to talk about this'. It certainly managed my frustration in that circumstance!

[BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood]

@Rinkydinkydoodle

OP I read this thread with some laughs and a bit of sadness too. This is bloody wearing and even nerve-wracking at times. Oppositional conversationalists. Lots of good thoughts on here, and comforting to know it’s actually pretty common.

I have recently had to start suggesting to DS how to politely field this sort of stuff from a persistently over-argumentative older relative. Since DS got older and has a worldview and a life of his own he’s coming in for it as well and it’s getting awkward and noticeable. Part of me wants to say ‘Och could you not give it a rest and leave the boy alone.’ Some people are brilliant at ‘hmmm’ but teenagers tend not to be. I avoid confrontation if it can be avoided, and even if I do tackle it privately sometime, I also want DS to show manners and kindness, even when I’m not sure it’s reciprocated. think it’s the advancing age and possibly diminishing faculties of our non-stop arguer that’s both causing this tedious behaviour and making it impossible to call out.

One further strategy aside from the many excellent ones suggested here, I observed from my mum, who had years of dealing with this herself:


Me: no babies are called Doris these days
DM: I know three Dorises
Me: whennnn I was jusssst a little girl I asked my mother - what would I BEEEEEEE🎶

Spontaneous, joyous song about a tenuously connected subject is a belter. Extra points for a tiny tincture of cheek, but only if there’s 100% plausible deniability 😂 Also winners: firing the mixer on, washing the dishes with alacrity and racket, suddenly noticing you could be doing with cleaning your shoes, right now, in the next room. At Christmas DD and I got the old hand-whisk and a cocktail shaker simultaneously on the go at one sticky juncture, while singing Shake Rattle and Roll. Tiring for me over a weekend but also hard to niggle at They Who Just Cannot Quite Hear.

🤣🤣🤣

[crossstitchingnana]

My dm is like this. I feel like she is always criticising me. I have found a simple "it's what we have decided/chosen/want" takes the sting out. It means I am not engaging with it.

[Lambchop1]

As my father has got older I have found him to pick arguments with silly things - literally like apples over bananas type stuff - I have realised it makes him feel “Alive” to voice his opinion and have a bit of a heated debate. I think he gets a rush of adrenaline and a sense of being important from that brief encounter, especially as he doesn’t see many people now. I don’t actually think he can help it.
its not nice always being on the other end, but I tend to joke it off and say “dad you pick a argument with a mirror!” And we laugh, ending it with a bye and a hug. Don’t take it personally OP, I think she needs to feel she still has a presence.

[MysterOfwomanY]

My Dad was like this, argumentative like an attention-seeking twelve year old being naughty to not be ignored.
When I looked back and realised what a loveless childhood he'd had it all clicked. Still drove me barmy though.
I used to use the stony non-response, but, to be fair, when someone is clearly trying to stir up an argument about Brexit (FFS!) .... well, the least you say then the better!!

I remember him carping on to me about my nephew, who had done something crashingly dumb, but he was a teenage boy and that's what they do!, and god only knows Dad had done enough daft stuff in his early years.

I said, quite politely, "Do you actually love him, because you don't talk as though you do," and he went quiet.

He wasn't a bad man at all, but OH MY GOD if he'd been nurtured and loved until he was 18, SO many lives would have been different.

[OldandTired66]

You could try replying with a question back.
"Why would you not buy boots"
"I need shoes, where did you buy your last pair?"
"What's your favourite yogurt / dessert etc? Distract and divert.

[Heartsoft]

@schmalex

I'd recommend reading Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. It might help you with some strategies to help it not get to you.

@schmalex Just wanted to say a huge thank you for recommending this book. I couldn't put it down. It explained so much to me and help me to understand the difficulties I have been having all my life with my parents and why I have become who I am today. Thank you.

[Rollinghill]

I recognise much from this thread.
I go with @Beamur's style - start with "oh aren't car seats expensive", and work my way back round to "Oh yes you are right we will definitely get a good one"
It is tiring though.

[freckles20]

@schmalex / @Heartsoft is this the book? I've found a few with similar titles so wanted to check.

I am currently at my mum's house and staying the night at her request as a birthday present with DS and DH.

It has been a very hard evening and made me recognise just how unpleasant and difficult she is.

I'm hoping to download and listen to it in bed this evening.

[freckles20]

Apologies I don't seem
To be able to attach a photo to my previous post.

The book I'm wondering about is by Lindsay Gibson, the cover is mainly great with an illustration paper people cutouts.

[MumofSpud]

My DM (79) is like this - as others have said it's v draining but she has been like this for years so it's not an age thing.
Her argumentativeness also comes with great confidence as well!

[Ragwort]

This my DM too, she is so opinionated and just loves a 'discussion' ... our views are quite different and I just find it so draining. I tend to agree with a PP's comments in that's it if she wants to make everyone know she still has a 'voice' and a contribution to society .. she has a horror of being seen as a 'little old lady'. She's 90 and fully 'with it' but I just don't want to have intense discussions about current affairs etc all the time.
She phoned me yesterday just to confirm what time she is invited to Mother's Day lunch and even a simple question launched into a heated discussion about a news item ... I know I should just smile and nod but sometimes that's easier said than done. And I know I should still be very grateful to have my DM alive at my age.
She worked in the same industry I work in now but obviously there have been significant changes ... she was ranting about how 'different' and worse things are now and she couldn't understand why a specific site location has changed ... I had to remind her it was over 65 years since she had visited the site .

[spelunky]

OP, what does your DM have going on in the rest of her life?

My mum is a bit like this too, she leads quite a solitary life these days with not much going on for her. I sometimes wonder if she is just bored and living in quite an insular world, so in a way likes the drama of a disagreement.

It is frustrating when they don't have any insight into how draining it is.

[BeethovenNinth]

This is an old person thing, especially post covid. I also receive “well none of you listen to me anyway”.

it is draining but they aren’t around forever!

i find my DM easier to be taken out so that’s what we do.

[Ttwinkletoes]

Their behaviour reminds me of what MNers describe their DCs doing - Good as gold at school but dreadfully behaved at home.
So they just let all their grumpy annoyedness with the world out on to their daughters- probably don’t do it to sons. Because they are their DDs so they can treat them as they please and get away with it.

[S0upertrooper]

I hear you OP! My late MIL was like this and I eventually stopped engaging and if I had to be in her company, stopped talking because everything I said, she contradicted. I think she was a very discontented woman as she picked fault with everything and everyone. Easier for me to disengage and go NC with MIL than you with DM but remember, it's her, not you.

Maybe just stop responding when she makes a dig?

[schmalex]

@Heartsoft - you're so welcome! I think I read about it on here somewhere and it really helped me so I'm happy to pass it on :)

@freckles20 yes Lindsay Gibson is the one.

[Ragwort]

I'm not so sure about taking my DM out so that she behaves 'better', we've had plenty of heated conversations in restaurants and cafes and a never to be forgotten 'discussion' in a very loud voice at a private film showing where she was arguing about how a certain actor hadn't been cast in the right role ... my DM did have a professional drama education (in the 1950s) so she has some understanding but it just appeared so 'opinionated' and unnecessary.
Or the occasion when she publicly and loudly berated me (I am 65!) for being 'politically correct' and woke for gently reminding her not to use a racist term ....

[BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood]

@Ragwort

I'm not so sure about taking my DM out so that she behaves 'better', we've had plenty of heated conversations in restaurants and cafes and a never to be forgotten 'discussion' in a very loud voice at a private film showing where she was arguing about how a certain actor hadn't been cast in the right role ... my DM did have a professional drama education (in the 1950s) so she has some understanding but it just appeared so 'opinionated' and unnecessary.
Or the occasion when she publicly and loudly berated me (I am 65!) for being 'politically correct' and woke for gently reminding her not to use a racist term ....

I have had spectacular rows with my mother in restaurants cafes etc . She seems to save her nastiest behaviour for those places for some reason. I would never go out with her now .

[Ireallydohope]

My DM is awkward and difficult and my DS who is not dissimilar gets on very well with her