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Elderly parents

Argumentative mother - find it awkward to be around her

120 replies

BlueberryBuffin · 18/02/2023 11:11

Hi,
I'm not sure this is the right board, my DM is in her 70s. It's not an AIBU so much as techniques/support I need!

I live a few hours away from DM so don't see her much. But when I do I find her very argumentative if that's the right word.

Eg if we're talking about car seats for my DC she'll say they never had car seats in her day and everyone was fine. But I know if I had said car seats are a waste of money, why do we even bother she'd be outraged we wouldn't get one.

Eg I gave my DC plain yogurt mixed with fruit but some spoonfuls were just yogurt, some had more fruit. She made a face and said that yogurt was awful stuff, how could baby even eat it.

Eg we were talking about baby names, not my DC , just general conversation. Say the name "Doris" came up. I said Doris is not very popular these days for babies. She said well she knows three old ladies called Doris.

I say I'm going to buy X for myself. She says well why would you not buy Y?

I know these examples sound petty but it's most of the time . And it's her tone is challenging. Then I feel if I reply "yes but your 3 Doris examples are not newborn babies, they're 80 years old" or "well DC seems to be eating this yogurt just fine" or "I'm buying X because I prefer it to Y" then I sound like I'm the one being argumentative. And it also leaves scope for another comment from DM like "well she might be eating that yogurt but I'm sure she'd prefer a strawberry one, the poor child"

So I sit like a plank and say very little which is awkward and unfortunate.

If she has visitors (eg neighbours) she then complains about them afterwards and rolls her eyes at them saying AB or C.

My siblings seem to manage but they can be argumentative themselves. I'm not sure what I'm asking - maybe techniques to handle this that would allow me not to sit like a statue? And to want to spend time there?

At the moment my DM does not need care but would like company but as time goes by I'm sure she'll need more.

OP posts:
BlueberryBuffin · 18/02/2023 22:48

@BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood that sounds so hard, I'm sorry Flowers

OP posts:
Sunshineparasol · 18/02/2023 22:54

You need a few stock answers and have them ready before you see her.

"We're all different"
"In a sense..."
"Who knows, really"

Just some fluffy, non committed phrases. I like "We're all different". Can't argue with that and it's a very subtle rebuke.

They don't even have to be relevant to what she said (all the better if they are not as then she'd have to backtrack and repeat her nonsense which you can then Mmm at.

The one technique I like but can't master is literally changing the subject on the spot, especially if it's your turn to respond. I've seen this technique used before and it is brilliant for putting antagonists on the back foot. It completely snuffs out the spark of challenge and attention-seeking which is what these interactions are generally about.

eg: Me: very few babies are called Doris these days
DM: well I know three people called Doris
Me: They say there'll be a big freeze next week. I'll need to dig my gloves out again.

What's your DM going to do about that? Say "I said, I know three people called Doris?" You "Oh, right.... Have you got your gloves ready?"

It gives someone provoking a reaction a complete dead-end.

NattyNamechanger · 18/02/2023 22:56

BlueberryBuffin · 18/02/2023 22:44

I'm thinking out loud here but I wonder is part of it because she doesn't see me as an autonomous adult and therefore if I think X I must be wrong and it's for her to set me straight and tell me that actually Y is correct?

She has overstepped boundaries in the past and has stopped speaking to me for things I have done in my own life that don't directly affect her. Eg moving to a different town with a boyfriend. Breaking up with a boyfriend (or rather him breaking up with me 😂). Getting back with a boyfriend. I know that me living with a certain person or in a certain place does affect her to an extent but it's my life really and my choices/mistakes to make.

(She has also been the same with my siblings over partners)

This is toxic and abusive behaviour.
What was/ is your DF like ?

pennysays · 18/02/2023 23:02

Such thoughtful answers and people generously sharing their own experiences.

It’s not quite the same situation but some of the way my family talks to me is very hurtful. I’m also practising stock phrases which set a boundary for ME but is not about them. E.g.

”thanks for the input, I’m going to stick with what I’m doing for the moment. If I need advice I will definitely ask you”.

”thanks for the suggestion. I’ve though about this subject really carefully and this is the best option I’ve come up with and I don’t want to debate it further.”

”thanks for your input. I’m just sharing what’s happening and not asking for advice. I’ll let you know if I need any help”

”I’d like to stick to only happy topics today as I find talking about X very depressing. I hope you can find someone else to talk to about this stuff”

”isn’t it interesting how we can all have different opinions about things?”

BlueberryBuffin · 18/02/2023 23:03

Sunshineparasol · 18/02/2023 22:54

You need a few stock answers and have them ready before you see her.

"We're all different"
"In a sense..."
"Who knows, really"

Just some fluffy, non committed phrases. I like "We're all different". Can't argue with that and it's a very subtle rebuke.

They don't even have to be relevant to what she said (all the better if they are not as then she'd have to backtrack and repeat her nonsense which you can then Mmm at.

The one technique I like but can't master is literally changing the subject on the spot, especially if it's your turn to respond. I've seen this technique used before and it is brilliant for putting antagonists on the back foot. It completely snuffs out the spark of challenge and attention-seeking which is what these interactions are generally about.

eg: Me: very few babies are called Doris these days
DM: well I know three people called Doris
Me: They say there'll be a big freeze next week. I'll need to dig my gloves out again.

What's your DM going to do about that? Say "I said, I know three people called Doris?" You "Oh, right.... Have you got your gloves ready?"

It gives someone provoking a reaction a complete dead-end.

Lol at the gloves 😂 I'll try it.
I might also throw in a "well, look, sure, there you go anyway" - completely meaningless, is it agreement or disagreement? Who knows

Me: no babies are called Doris these days
DM: I know three Dorises
Me: well, look, sure there you have it

DM: ugh plain yogurt
Me: ah well sure look we're all different. Have you your gloves ready for the big freeze?

OP posts:
BlueberryBuffin · 18/02/2023 23:07

@NattyNamechanger yes, the behaviour is toxic and abusive but my DM is not. Really it's a result of what I imagine was a cold enough childhood for her emotionally with no conflict resolution skills.
My DF was a lovely man. He died years ago so I suppose it's easy to romanticise but I do think he was a much warmer more accepting parent and would have been much more pragmatic and glass half full let's get on with things person

OP posts:
BlueberryBuffin · 18/02/2023 23:09

@pennysays thank you for those suggestions. They are phrases that are both gentle and firm. I hope you find they work for you

OP posts:
NattyNamechanger · 19/02/2023 07:46

NattyNamechanger yes, the behaviour is toxic and abusive but my DM is not. Really it's a result of what I imagine was a cold enough childhood for her emotionally with no conflict resolution skills.

Your DM behaviour is toxic and abusive.
It sounds highly likely that you were brought up in a toxic family situation.
The issue is that you are used to these behaviours and had to adapt to them by either dissociation or by adapting your own behaviours.
No conflict resolution skills
This is very interesting- what conflict?
Children and adults are allowed their own identity, thoughts, needs and feelings.
The fact that there is conflict is the issue here.
I will bow out at this point.
It's immensely difficult when you start to realise that a parent is toxic, been there unfortunately.
All the best

BlueberryBuffin · 19/02/2023 07:53

@NattyNamechanger thank you for your advice and input. I have a lot to think about. I greatly appreciate the time and effort you have given, helping me to view this situation in a new way

OP posts:
Alcemeg · 19/02/2023 08:41

I love what @WishIWasACavewoman says about conversational traction.

With my own parents, I think it might also be to do with feeling increasingly obsolete/irrelevant in a changing world. Discomfort seeing the next generations behaving differently, deep unease with changes in customs.

Comments about yogurt/Doris might be your mum's way of saying, "Things are all changing too fast. Are you on my side or not?"

My way of dealing with it is to find something that answers the underlying feeling of bewilderment. So, with the yogurt, maybe your mum thinks this is a newfangled health fad and kids prefer something sweeter. So pull a face and laugh and tell her about someone feeding their kids fermented squid or something. Or with the Doris, tell her about someone calling their kid XMytfyr. Then, you can both wonder and laugh at the world together and she needn't feel so alone and overwhelmed.

If it's just contrariness, e.g. the shoes/boots thing, maybe use the eternal "Why?" to keep her going until she gets tired of it!

MereDintofPandiculation · 19/02/2023 11:26

The only way not to get an argumentative answer is to say nothing No it’s not, you can also try “agreeing”. “Why buy shoes,why not buy boots?” “Oh, that’s interesting, why do you think I should buy boots?” You can do it with half your mind, you don’t have to pay attention to the conversation, and if you remember you’re playing games, it doesn’t raise your emotional hackles.

Remember she can only be oppositional if you’re opposing her. If you keep shape-shifting so you’re on her side, she can’t oppose you.

It’s really, really difficult not to advise your children. Just because they’re grown-up, they’ve still got 30 years less experience than you. And the love and the longing for nothing bad to happen to them never goes away, nor does that pain inside you if things don’t go well for them.

BlueberryBuffin · 19/02/2023 12:22

MereDintofPandiculation · 19/02/2023 11:26

The only way not to get an argumentative answer is to say nothing No it’s not, you can also try “agreeing”. “Why buy shoes,why not buy boots?” “Oh, that’s interesting, why do you think I should buy boots?” You can do it with half your mind, you don’t have to pay attention to the conversation, and if you remember you’re playing games, it doesn’t raise your emotional hackles.

Remember she can only be oppositional if you’re opposing her. If you keep shape-shifting so you’re on her side, she can’t oppose you.

It’s really, really difficult not to advise your children. Just because they’re grown-up, they’ve still got 30 years less experience than you. And the love and the longing for nothing bad to happen to them never goes away, nor does that pain inside you if things don’t go well for them.

I do see your point but it's exhausting to have every statement argued with.
I didn't even start a conversation by saying I was buying shoes, she asked what i was getting in town. And then questioned me as to why I wouldn't get boots. Instead of saying "that's nice dear, have a good time. I hope you find a nice pair." They weren't for her!

And while I see what you mean about hoping nothing bad happens your children, the constant opposition isn't borne out of caring. It's from... I don't know what.

You sound like a kind person. As a thought experiment , disagree with everything your children tell you they're doing. Everything you see them doing tell them they should be doing something else. Every time they mention X tell them Y is right instead. If they say smoking kills tell them you know plenty smokers that live till they're 90. If they say that's a good old age tell them you think it's far too old, who'd want to live that long.

This conversation will probably not last very long as your children will probably look at you funny and withdraw from the conversation! That's how I feel. There is nothing my DM will not argue with.

I will try your tactic though of agreeing.
"That yogurt is awful"
"Yes you're right, it is muck" (as I feed it to my baby 😂)

OP posts:
BlueberryBuffin · 19/02/2023 12:28

@Alcemeg thank you but I don't think it's bewilderment. I think it is more likely to be conversational traction. Like she could have thought for 3 seconds and said "isn't it funny how fashions change. I know three Dorises in their 80s. I wonder what names that are popular now will be almost obsolete in another 80 years?" And we could have had a chat.
Instead she jumped in with a comment to put me in the wrong that was not a logical progression. Is it to seem more intelligent? As in I said what I said and she has proven me wrong?

I will also employ the "why" technique. My 5yo gives me a master class in it every day!!

OP posts:
EmotionalBlackmail · 19/02/2023 15:07

Aarrgghh mine is like this too. She's late 70s but has always been like this. She has to moan about everyone - every conversation is about how much she disapproves of what someone is doing, or how difficult it is with her GP (she actually has an amazing GP practice), or the parking at the shop etc. It's incredibly negative. For years I thought this was how conversation worked, but have taught myself not to do it. I do now limit contact, particularly between her and DD, because I don't want DD picking up these habits. I caught her out a few years back slagging off my wonderful DH to her friends (who she'd been slagging off to me for years!). At that point I realised how negative she is and how damaging it is, so I reduced contact.

She does it on the phone but I deal with it by half listening, saying 'mmmm' a lot and getting on with something else like my online shop simultaneously.

I think it's low self-esteem, as she constantly seems to need to feel 'better' than others. She can't seem to understand that different people like different things and have different habits and that's ok. She's also got a martyr complex which seems to mean she wants to be congratulated for putting up with all these people she moans about!

EmotionalBlackmail · 19/02/2023 15:08

Also around child-rearing - constant comments about any child related decision I make, whether car seats, food or discipline.

BlueberryBuffin · 19/02/2023 15:50

@EmotionalBlackmail
Yes the negative comments and martyr complex are familiar. I think you're right about low self esteem. Needing to be better than everyone and praised for putting up with them all.
My DM tends not to criticize my parental decisions though which is good!! Well, not to my face anyway

OP posts:
EmotionalBlackmail · 19/02/2023 16:13

I discovered mine can't be trusted with DD away from me - car seat safety type stuff and a refusal to admit she is ever wrong. So that has affected how much we see of her too.

BlueberryBuffin · 19/02/2023 16:15

EmotionalBlackmail · 19/02/2023 16:13

I discovered mine can't be trusted with DD away from me - car seat safety type stuff and a refusal to admit she is ever wrong. So that has affected how much we see of her too.

Oh that's very alarming for you. If you can't trust someone to keep your children safe it really is scary

OP posts:
Wombats67 · 19/02/2023 17:25

My DM could never be trusted with car seats, I don't think. Or my dog, she lets her out to see what she does...

I occasionally say "Why?" & that disconcerts her. I think it's finally dawning on her that's she's quite rude.

I think the comment about not being able to connect was spot on. Tho I think jealousy is also an issue.

People never change, they just get more so...

Dionysiana · 19/02/2023 21:51

All of the strategies suggested here for deflection and engaging less are very effective, but —and for me it was a big stumbling block— I personally was only able to put them into practice once I had given up all hope of ever having any kind of meaningful relationship with my mother.
They do work though.

BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood · 19/02/2023 22:23

EmotionalBlackmail · 19/02/2023 15:07

Aarrgghh mine is like this too. She's late 70s but has always been like this. She has to moan about everyone - every conversation is about how much she disapproves of what someone is doing, or how difficult it is with her GP (she actually has an amazing GP practice), or the parking at the shop etc. It's incredibly negative. For years I thought this was how conversation worked, but have taught myself not to do it. I do now limit contact, particularly between her and DD, because I don't want DD picking up these habits. I caught her out a few years back slagging off my wonderful DH to her friends (who she'd been slagging off to me for years!). At that point I realised how negative she is and how damaging it is, so I reduced contact.

She does it on the phone but I deal with it by half listening, saying 'mmmm' a lot and getting on with something else like my online shop simultaneously.

I think it's low self-esteem, as she constantly seems to need to feel 'better' than others. She can't seem to understand that different people like different things and have different habits and that's ok. She's also got a martyr complex which seems to mean she wants to be congratulated for putting up with all these people she moans about!

I do the ‘mmm’ thing but this seems to make my mother angry. I was once typing on the computer as I spoke to her at the same time. She was annoyed I wasn’t giving her my full attention. She likes to be the centre of attention, doesn’t like to see people iIn groups. She wants one person focusing on her alone , telling her how wonderful she is . I don’t ever tell her how wonderful she is because I can’t stand her, and this seems to make her snide and nasty. I can’t win .

JussathoB · 19/02/2023 22:57

BlueberryBuffin · 18/02/2023 23:03

Lol at the gloves 😂 I'll try it.
I might also throw in a "well, look, sure, there you go anyway" - completely meaningless, is it agreement or disagreement? Who knows

Me: no babies are called Doris these days
DM: I know three Dorises
Me: well, look, sure there you have it

DM: ugh plain yogurt
Me: ah well sure look we're all different. Have you your gloves ready for the big freeze?

I know the situation is no laughing matter but this did make me smile. Thank goodness for a sense of humour. I hope it will keep you going when your DM is being particularly infuriating

Polecat03 · 19/02/2023 23:02

Just a quick post of solidarity after having read everyone's own experiences of a mother like this - I recognise so much in all that you've each shared. That brings its own comfort.

Sympathy to all who have to navigate this type of relationship - I'm often so defeated, saddened and exhausted by it - after all, it seems entirely pointless most of the time - the most successful this relationship can be is 'not rocking the boat'. No closeness, I don't feel known or heard, I've merely fulfilled my obligation to visit and chased some nagging guilt away til next week.

@BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood Your accounts of your mother I could have written word for word myself. Hugs to you.

BlueberryBuffin · 20/02/2023 11:14

Polecat03 · 19/02/2023 23:02

Just a quick post of solidarity after having read everyone's own experiences of a mother like this - I recognise so much in all that you've each shared. That brings its own comfort.

Sympathy to all who have to navigate this type of relationship - I'm often so defeated, saddened and exhausted by it - after all, it seems entirely pointless most of the time - the most successful this relationship can be is 'not rocking the boat'. No closeness, I don't feel known or heard, I've merely fulfilled my obligation to visit and chased some nagging guilt away til next week.

@BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood Your accounts of your mother I could have written word for word myself. Hugs to you.

@Polecat03 yes, the sense of obligation is at least alleviated for a while.

And you are right, it is helpful to hear others ' accounts of the same situation

Many thanks to all for your stories and advice

OP posts:
BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood · 21/02/2023 01:36

Polecat03 · 19/02/2023 23:02

Just a quick post of solidarity after having read everyone's own experiences of a mother like this - I recognise so much in all that you've each shared. That brings its own comfort.

Sympathy to all who have to navigate this type of relationship - I'm often so defeated, saddened and exhausted by it - after all, it seems entirely pointless most of the time - the most successful this relationship can be is 'not rocking the boat'. No closeness, I don't feel known or heard, I've merely fulfilled my obligation to visit and chased some nagging guilt away til next week.

@BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood Your accounts of your mother I could have written word for word myself. Hugs to you.

Yes, I resonate entirely with what you have said. It’s so hard. A sadness that bleeds into everything else .

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