Older people rebel to keep sense of control, research finds

[MereDintofPandiculation]

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/21/older-people-rebel-to-keep-sense-of-control-study-finds

so next time your elder is being awkward, remember it’s good for them

@EmmaAgain22

the constant refrain of "I will manage" really means "I will cock it up and then ask you to fix it at short notice".

This is one of the best and most concise description of old wrangling I have ever read.

Bang on.

Anyone who has had to care for now increasingly frail elderly relative can completely understand how hard it is for them to give up their independence, to have to leave their home and rely on others.

However, hardly any of them ever had to deal with elderly parents themselves and they have no concept what it's like for family who are having to pick up the pieces. I'm in my 60s and most of my contemporaries are being run completely ragged with one or more old who refuse to co operate with care plans.

I can't really say thanks as it seems odd.

I lost track of this thread because as I was venting and feeling ragey, I got a call that mum wasn't well.

by the time I got there, she was fine. It's not linked to taking silly risks, not her fault at all. But some of the comments on this thread clearly don't factor in that the "independence" is often completely fake.

I had to spend the night there, so was stuck there till xmas. My mum didn't understand that either, that I was so upset and annoyed.

I think she gets it more now because I became absolutely hysterical, I was so upset. She's now got some leaflets and today said to me that she is willing to have a paid carer to take her to the shops and stuff.

I think when I take her, or my sister, she can just pretend she's out with her daughter.

My sister is very much at the stage of wanting to wash her hands of it all.

I realise that lovely Mere didn't intend to start an upsetting conversation, but I hope it has been helpful for others. We don't have to be victims of other people's delusions.

I think she gets it more now because I became absolutely hysterical, I was so upset.

Emma - I've been hysterical a few times over the past four years myself. I once lay on the hospital floor shaking after overbalancing when I was trying to get the side down from mums bed. It was 2 am in the morning. I had a nonnegotiable work deadline the next day and my mum didn't want me to leave. The nurses thought I was having an epileptic fit but I was just having a panic attack. It's horrible. It's happened a few other times. I always end up feeling that I am committing elder abuse, though I am not abusive. I'm just distressed but in the end it makes it worse because I feel as though I have to apologise because she is more vulnerable than me. On other occasions when I have been trying to persuade her to get carers, she's said she can cope and I have cried and said I can't, but this doesn't seem to make any difference to her. She has finally accepted she needs carers and I was going to sort something out this week, but now I've got Covid and my voice is too croaky to make phone calls.

SierraSapphire, Emma both. I sometimes end up feeling like the most appalling bully - DParent won't drink enough, leading to repeated UTIs, falls and kidney issues. I understand why, they're not too steady on their feet and hate getting up and down to go to the loo, but they nearly died this time last year due to sepsis following a UTI.

I ended up having a horrible conversation about it being me who always has to deal with the fallout, me who spends hours sitting by hospital beds, me who has the worry and the heartache of it all. DH is spectacularly good and kind -DParent lives with us and he's never, ever complained at how much of my day is spent with them doing the washing, dressing, getting meals, making sure they can reach the loo in time and just spending time with them watching TV, not to mention the paperwork and phone calls. But I did point out to DParent that it's pressure on me, emotionally, physically, financially (I don't work f/t because of their needs). The only thing they need to do is make sure they drink 4x300ml cups of tea a day to stay hydrated and they can't even do that........

for everyone.

Mine's being unreasonable again. Said I only see her twice a year. I actually spent most of my annual leave with her. It's over a week at Christmas, including six or twelve hours of driving. Plus a similar in the summer. And a few days spring and autumn.

Hours on the phone every week.

I think the hardest thing both with my own parents and then with my MIL was to get them to accept carers.

With my DPs (DM had dementia and DF was looking after her) we had a lovely GP, who was really on top of things, and once the care visits were set up everything was fine.

MIL has been much more complicated, her Alzheimer's suddenly got so bad last year and she became convinced we were gaslighting her, hiding things, coming into the house at night etc, so it was impossible to help her. The GP had to get involved and referred her to the community dementia team, and matters were out of our hands.

I was visiting a friend in hospital last year and there was an old lady with severe Alzheimer's in a side ward. She was there because her daughter was elsewhere in the hospital following a heart attack - in her 50s! Her mum had been living with her and her family (two teenagers) and there was nowhere else to put her when the daughter collapsed.

@EmmaAgain22 @Coxspurplepippin @SierraSapphire and all of you, you must all look after yourselves and you must absolutely not feel guilty about stepping back occasionally (although it is so hard to do) or feel that you are failing in any way because you can't manage. I always found the staff, especially those in the dementia team, were incredibly supportive and understanding of what we were going through they see so many families going through this. I hope that this will be your experience too, although I'm afraid to say that sourcing care, whether at home or in a residential setting, has never been harder, I can't imagine how many people are at breaking point dealing with elderly parents.

Sierra sorry to hear you are ill. Most of the people I contacted was via message anyway, plus I wanted the rates and conditions written down anyway. Could you do that to get someone to see her?

sorry to all dealing with this. I think that headline really pissed me off because of the unspoken bit...it should say "they rebel to get control of others who have to run around after them". Not saying it's intentional, only two possible incidents with my olds, the last being the one I described here, no excuse for dragging me across counties when my sister was already there.

That might be an error of judgment, I also have vertigo and perhaps she panicked and my sister is the one who should have held back on the phone call. I always panic when I have vertigo, I understand it.

i did have another chat with mum today which some might consider harsh. I said she has a pattern that when I get home, she is always on at me about when my next visit is.

she has admitted this is not about "needing' anything, she just wants me around. I love my mum to bits and wouldn't mind daily visits, but the travel is impossible to keep doing. Of course part of the issue there is that for many people in my age group, 2 hours door to door is a normal commute.

I blame the overachievers. In the family circle there are lots of people working, commuting, looking after parents and children and still going to the bloody gym. Mum has one neighbour in her 30s who helps mum with shopping. She is a lovely lady but she had a rant one day about lazy people at her work - and everything she said described me to a T!

What I'm finding hard is DMs reluctance to compromise or accept less than perfection. She can't achieve these things herself so relies on others to make it happen to her very exacting standards. She'll throw a party when I'm there, so I can do all the work. She's headed home on the train, with assistance booked, but will expect everything to run like clockwork. If there's a delay or a problem of any kind, even if resolved, she'll 'never use the train again'. I tend to regard any journey that ends with me arriving at the destination as a success. She only regards it a success if she was exactly on time, in her preferred seat, with congenial company, met at the platform by someone with time to help her into the house with her 53 bags. She's not grasped the need to travel light when you are relying on others to manage your luggage for you.
Sigh.

The 90-something in our family is currently in hospital waiting for a care package after having yet another bad fall - this could be months, and she’s obviously not happy at all. She’s refused to entertain care packages before now, and relies on friends and neighbours locally to help her in emergencies and for us to rearrange work etc to drive 1.5 hours to her. She refused to move closer to us, so her independence is facilitated by the goodwill of others. Her lack of personal responsibility also costs the NHS a huge amount of resources.

While this article might be entertaining the reality is far from funny.

We have to try and laugh though or we'd end up in a sobbing heap , solidarity everyone on here

I’m past laughing - lots more going on in our situation that I won’t bore everyone with, but yy to solidarity!

It’s not at all funny. Nobody wants to say it but the sort of situations discussed here are why the NHS is about to combust, and A&E is completely overwhelmed and unable to send ambulances to very sick children.

My grandparents were the same - I adored them and we were very close, but they were completely stubborn and selfish and refused to leave their enormous and impractical home until it was far too late, even then it was only to an assisted flat when it was very clear they needed a proper care home (and had plenty of money to do this). Granddad ended up in hospital after yet another fall and despite there being nothing wrong with my gran she ended up bed blocking as a ‘social patient’ for 3 weeks because she couldn’t go home without him.

Eventually granddad died before leaving the hospital, very distressed that he didn’t know where my gran would go from there and how she would cope with a new setting without him. She did end up moving into a care home but had they done this a few years before, maybe the fall would’ve been avoided, granddad could’ve died with his wife by his side rather than across the other side of the hospital, and she would’ve already been settled in.

They were very wealthy individuals but out of sheer pride didn’t want to end up ‘in a home’ and instead would phone family every time there was a medical emergency, meaning everyone had to take it in turns to drop what they were doing and drive out to them at 2am. Caused a lot of arguments and exhausted everyone for a handful of years.

It’s incredibly selfish and I think we need to be more honest with the elderly about the effect they have on those around them.

So true. Is it this particular generation many of whom have been able to do pretty much what they want?

My mum certainly lands in that generation of cheap housing, good pensions etc.

They've just sent an elderly relative home from hospital this morning. He's not fit to stay home. His cleaner rang to say he wouldn't let her in. She called DM who's too old to help. Blind leading the blind, sadly. He'll be back in hospital before you know it. He needs to be in a home. I think he knows it.

its an interesting idea. We’re now reaching the generation that is used to the nhs from an early age. The social reforms of the 1945 government were so radical with the cradle to grave message that maybe it soaked into them young with the concept that someone would always look after them.

It’s not a new thing though, and I think it is also personality dependent. My grandma was very entitled with my mums time, and my mum used to say that my grandma had no idea what it was like to care for an elderly person - her own mother was in a home when she was old, and grandma had lots of siblings, so her care was limited to one visit a week at the home. That was 20+ years ago.

My mum herself is always very grateful whenever we visit, saying thank you for whatever we’ve just done. It’s interesting to see the disconnect between that and the deeper, almost visceral and subconscious expectations that DB and I will sort out whatever needs sorting. Like the generations have been reversed, and she is looking to us to make things right in the same way a child looks to their parents for security. In that way, being rebellious like a teenager and not fully grasping the consequences for other people, fits well.

Yes I also think they have zero idea what it’s like to be a working family in modern life. They seem to think women don’t work and have ample time to run around after elderly relatives, drop in for cups of tea etc. I also think people naturally become more selfish as they age - they feel they ‘know it all’ and that younger people need to be subservient to them, that they can’t possibly be wrong.

So true. Is it this particular generation many of whom have been able to do pretty much what they want? Most of the “boomer” generation are doing the caring. Let’s not get into intergenerational arguments more than we are already.

I don't think it's generational

Someone else might be able to answer this -

was there more social care provision in the past?

i'm vaguely aware of my dad mentioning it. He acted as emergency help for a neighbour who was about 20 years older and I have a faint recollection of him being annoyed about some changes but I can't recall what exactly.

also, I was chatting to a neighbour in my block today. Her mum died about 15 years ago, in her 90s. Neighbour said she used to call Adult Social Care for falls and even TIAs - she said her mum recovered quickly from them and the hospital couldn't help anyway? But I was amazed she could call someone for falls etc. She was equally amazed that we've been told to wait 3 months to get the house assessed.

I'm reading this thread literally sat in hospital missing my one bit of rest for NYE waiting to see if DM is being discharged today after a completely avoidable fall because she's so 'independent', read stubborn. The PP description of

"the constant refrain of "I will manage" really means "I will cock it up and then ask you to fix it at short notice"."

literally could not be more accurate.

It's not the level of need that I notice, so much as the resistance to any diminishment of independence or standards.
I remember my grandparents accepting that as they aged they could do less and had fewer choices. DM isn't recognising that at all.
She has frequent medical appointments where she expects to be 'fixed' but won't take most medications because of a fear of side effects.

She won't accept that her hands are less nimble, her eyesight less acute and her hearing wobbly. She demands someone fix it.
She won't pay for carers or home help or trades, despite being actively wealthy, but expects family members to do it. She expects tradesmen to spend hours helping her plan a job, and only be paid for the hour they are actively doing the task.
She won't book time with family members, she expects them to be available when she calls.

Oh dear
is she being discharged to you?

Solidarity with everyone. I should be grateful that it has only taken about a year to gently but firmly persuade my Mum that she needs to be in a care home. She recently accepted after another fall at home, thankfully.

And whilst it is a relief, she still relies heavily on my sibling and I for practical and emotional support in a way I really hope I won't with my children in the future. For instance, her phone stopped working and that caused endless fuss, stress and patience-wearing visits to get her used to a new phone. Literally all she does on it is make and accept calls - it's not a smart phone.

Some of the stories on here are eye-watering and I feel bad for each and everyone of you .

No, I've only got to take her home, DF is at home and about as semi-capable as her. They're at the awkward stage where on the surface they look very independent and refuse to hear of it that they're not but all the 'oh can you come round because I can't do this' and 'no, we don't need a walking frame... oh your mum's had a little fall' and the ridiculous number of GP/hospital appts etc all adds up.

My MIL chooses to put her faith in god, as apparently he will sort everything out. I didn’t realise he worked for the social services department of her local council with an unlimited budget solely for the use of ChenMIL, but apparently it’s true.