Power of attorney and spending money

[Siriisatwat]

Hi,

I’m in a bit of a state at the mo, my dad is in hospital. He clearly has some form of dementia but so far hasn’t been assessed (he lived 3 hours from me until I brought him to stay here a few weeks ago so I could help him).

He’s had quite a rapid decline over the last week.

He’s only got two changes of clothes with him. I cannot afford the petrol or time to do a six hour round trip to pick him up more. And to be honest, he’s lost a lot a weight in the last few months so all his clothes are hanging off him and he doesn’t like spending money so all those now too
big clothes are years old.

I’ve been trying to take him shopping but he will not spend a penny, he’s always been tight. I finally managed to get him to buy some t shirts last week but the next day he made me return them as he wanted his money back.

I have power of attorney and I have his wallet here.

Would I be able to go and buy him some clothes with his card?

I don’t have the money myself to get any for him so that’s not an option, I would have to
use his account.

My friend is in a nursing home. I have his debit card and will just go and buy the things he needs. I keep a log of everything I spend on it. I do not have power of attorney and don't want to have it D it's too much responsibility. When his own son can't be bothered.

Speak to the bank and do it correctly. POA is exactly for this type of thing. He’s unable to make decisions for himself at the moment and you need to make them.

I can see why you need to go through with the sale of his current property, but why do you need to buy the new flat? It does sound very unlikely that he'll be able to live there. Unfortunately, moves can make dementia deteriorate quite significantly, so it will likely not be better when he does move, and it sounds like at the very least he'll need assisted living accommodation. Why not use the funds from the property he's selling to pay for appropriate temporary accommodation until you can get something more permanent sorted. There's loads of very nice assisted living complexes, where tailored care can be provided as needed, that have small flats available to rent. You could even try renting one before deciding to purchase, or part purchase. Proceeding with the current purchase seems like madness, you need to move him, but you don't need to buy somewhere to do that. You'll likely need to sell it again shortly anyway, which will be a massive pain and expense, and it could hinder being able to find an appropriate place for him if there aren't the funds for that without a property sale. Now seems like the best time to sell and keep the cash, so you can make the right decision about the future.

I do see what you mean.

He does have significant savings which would pay for care in the meantime.

My in FILs mum is in a home. Savings are still paying for now but they rent out her flat and put the proceeds into the account to keep it topping up so they don’t have to sell for a while. So that’s where the idea came from.

And he wouldn’t be able to afford an assisted living flat. The closest ones to us start at 200k. That’s more than the value of his properly and savings combined.

To rent they start at 2k a month.

The flat he’s selling is warden assisted - it’s crap to be honest. They have been zero help.

Like I said though, we have a while before exchange anyway.

We’ll see what next week throws up with the assessments, speak to the solicitor.

@Siriisatwat

And he wouldn’t be able to afford an assisted living flat. The closest ones to us start at 200k. That’s more than the value of his properly and savings combined.

To rent they start at 2k a month.

The flat he’s selling is warden assisted - it’s crap to be honest. They have been zero help.

See what the council have to offer in terms of assisted living flats - for rent. It's unlikely he'll be in it very long. Assisted living properties aren't like regular council flats so there's not the same demand or criteria as other council properties.

I’ll have a look into that, thank you.

I’m just so drained at the moment. This has all gone down hill so fast.

Mid September, he was filling up an online Ikea basket with new table, chairs and a bed for his flat and comparing prices to Argos and chatting to the estate agent about completion dates.

And now he thinks my husband, who he last saw on thursday is dead.

From a quick google, it looks like there is a savings threshold for the council which he would be over.

My dads SIL was the same, she had to go into a home for the same reasons at 83. She was fit and healthy too.

She lived for another 12 years, she died earlier this year. The last 8 years of her life she was just sat looking ahead. No life in her at all. It was terrible.

My dad begged no earlier this year never to let him end up like her. And now this

But because she was so physically fit and it was just her brain, she kept on surviving.

So I never assume anything would be short term, even given his age.

I just wanted to pass on my very best wishes and sympathies to you Siriisatwat, you are going through an incredibly difficult time and I know how draining and upsetting that is.

My sibling and I had POA for my dad and it was a godsend, we only had the finance side but fortunately the welfare side did not become an issue, I am relieved you have both aspects. Husband and I have already done our POAs for both aspects because we saw with my dad how essential it was to have those in place.

My heart genuinely goes out you, you sound like you are doing a phenomenal job, so sorry for what you are going through.

Today is likely to be the best he will ever be.
Now is the time to act in his best interests, acknowledge needs outweigh wants and transfer straight to care home. This is what he has 'scrimped and saved for all his life'. To ensure he is safe and well cared for in his later years. If you wait for anyone with dementia to agree to a care home you will wait forever.
Your nuclear family, middle years and mental health matter more. Step right back and make it clear to social services you are withdrawing any support that enables a frail, vulnerable and muddled old gentleman to live alone. Carers or not.
As a district nurse of many years I saw the mess that people ended up in insisting on returning to unsuitable living conditions. With significant savings, the cost is largely irrelevant at this point, avoiding recurrent crises at home which is where he's headed, is the priority.

It’s just so hard to be losing him like this and so fast.

He’s been not the easiest person. He’s curtailed my life since I was a child (wouldn’t let me go to college because he wanted me to stay near him, followed me around the country when I had to move, I’ve lost jobs in the past because he pretend to be ill so I would have to take so much time off, my first husband left me because of his demanding behaviour).

But despite all that he’s still my dad and seeing him like this kills me. I can’t stand it. Right now, I wish that he would become ill and pass away, as terrible as it sounds, I can’t stand to see him suffer like this, being so confused and knowing he will only get worse.

There is only him and me, my mum died when I was a child, no siblings, no extended family.

I just hate this.

Once he is a bit more settled the hospital staff can carry out their assessments, they probably wont do this while he is very confused, they also need to investigate the sudden confusion and deterioration. They should then hold a meeting with you and you all decide on where the safest place would be for him to live, it may be a carehome or an extra an care facility which are rented, they are £1k a month here in se London and the admission is through the local council. A carehome will be £1k a week minimum. If he pays himself he can claim attendance allowance and social services will carry out a financial assessment to see what help he may get towards funding, if it's really unlikely he can live on his own it might be easier just to sell the house, put his possessions into storage and spend the time looking for somewhere nice with kind staff where he can live and be cared for. Going from hospital to temporary care then a new flat then a carehome will be really unsettling for him. With the clothes, the hospital wont wash them so I would label anything and ask if you will be allowed to take them off the ward to launder them . Its such a difficult situation for everyone, dementia is so cruel.

I’ve not mentioned this before but I was a carer on and off for years, caring for dementia patients.

I’ve worked for some of the so called best care home chains in the country, done agency work, I must have worked in dozens. The amount of times I’ve had to report poor care to the CQC when managers didn’t care.

I wouldn’t have boarded a dog some of the places I worked and the way some of the managers and staff acted when families visited, they deserved oscars.

So I’m so scared having seen what it’s like from the inside.

Dh says at least I could keep on top of it.

So that’s not helping my state of mind at all.

And it’s so different with my own dad, I’ve just gone to pieces and I can’t think or process anything.

I’m the same with my kids, I worked as a school welfare officer for a while, eve amount of injuries, broken arms, ambulance calls I did with ease - my own kids, I just crumble on the spot.

@Siriisatwat

It’s just so hard to be losing him like this and so fast.

He’s been not the easiest person. He’s curtailed my life since I was a child (wouldn’t let me go to college because he wanted me to stay near him, followed me around the country when I had to move, I’ve lost jobs in the past because he pretend to be ill so I would have to take so much time off, my first husband left me because of his demanding behaviour).

But despite all that he’s still my dad and seeing him like this kills me. I can’t stand it. Right now, I wish that he would become ill and pass away, as terrible as it sounds, I can’t stand to see him suffer like this, being so confused and knowing he will only get worse.

There is only him and me, my mum died when I was a child, no siblings, no extended family.

I just hate this.

All I can offer you is , this is so hard on you and no it is not terrible to not want your dad to suffer like he his.

Yes it's difficult finding somewhere nice, I ignore the cqc ratings now after working in healthcare for 30 years, it's not always the fancy expensive places that are best, our local council run homes seem much kinder. With a national shortage of carers and community help too it's even worse. I used to be against cameras but I can see why families and responsible managers have them installed.

I used to work a lot of nightshifts, getting people up and dressed for the day at 5am, or just the conveyor belt of changing pads as quickly as you could. It used to break my heart.

I got a warning once for spending time
comforting a lady who was crying. I didn’t get through the other pad changes fast enough before handover. Manager was furious but I couldn’t have left her so distressed like I was supposed to.

And i’d never be swayed by activities. Half the time they don’t happen (unless they know families will be visiting), or they are just ridiculous and inappropriate sometimes.

the hosp social worker should assess his needs before he is discharged.
can you ask her to liaise with local authority re extra care housing.
that might be a good option, if available.
i wish you all the best.

You have worked in care so you know how it goes...he could go on like this for a good few years yet.
Better to sort a 'final move' now than having to move him twice.
I wish you all the best.

@BigYellowHat

He has to have been assessed by a qualified HCP to have lost capacity in order for your POA to kick in. Under the Mental Capacity Act, people have the right to make unwise decisions (like not buying clothes that fit) and still be judged to have capacity. Speak to his GP/nurse/OT.

That depends how the PoA is written. The Finance one can come into effect while he still has capacity.

The Office of Public Guardian guidance makes it clear that capacity isn’t all or nothing, or even permanent. It says nothing about requiring assessment by an HCP

www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-be-an-attorney/how-to-be-an-attorney-property-and-financial-decisions

Social worker from the hospital just called to say they can discharge him and he can come back here as he can get up from bed to chair ok.

I said no, went through everything again.

I said what about the cognitive assessment I spoke with the dr about yesterday? She said that has to be done in the community. Well, it’s
not because the GP couldn’t be arsed to refer him as he was in hospital.

So she said when is his flat ready, you’ll have to contact SS again for another assessment for home care once he’s in.

I’ve made it clear he can’t come back to my house because of the stairs he keeps trying to climb, he is going to fall. But because he’s only ever had one fall, and we are in touch with the falls advisor she said it wasn’t enough of an issue.

She is going to speak to the consultant and call me back.

This is such a shit show. No one seems to want to help him with any sort of diagnosis so we know where we stand.