Responsibility for Elderly Parents? Support thread right here!

[Needmoresleep]

Several of us are on the same journey. Some more difficult than others, some longer than others, but none easy. Feel free to share tears, rants or laughter with others who will understand.

Oh sticker. This sounds really frustrating. You and your dh cannot help if is not accepted. All you can do is look after yourselves and be ready for when the inevitable happens. Rant away- they have chosen. Really hard but it is all you can do.

Thank you. I've been lurking for months, reading such sad stories. DH now coming through the door.

It happens. I'm not sure I won't fight just as hard to retain my independence. However illogical or unsafe.

They are responsible for their decisions, and the consequences. It is awful to just look on, but till there is a crisis this is probably what you have to do.

Sticker, how frustrating, especially about the Memory Clinic - waiting for an appointment for DM here. They can't cope with their routines or plans being changed, can they?

Sticker I really feel for you. I think as Needmoresleep has said it is going to be one of those situations where it will take a crisis and she is absolutely right, they are responsible for their decisions and consequences - it is part if the Mental Capacity Act.

There comes a point when the stress of it all affects your own health. I have a lovely GP who told me to step back when the whole situation was breaking me. Ideally though the time to step back is before that happens, but it is hard to do. The longer you step in the longer the crisis is in coming. Easy to say but very hard to actually do though.

The difficult thing at the moment is building a new relationship with them. The MIL we used to have would never have given my then 12 year old a Christmas card asking her to rearrange the words off & f@&$ on the front of it. She wouldn't have forgotten to give her a Christmas present then given the sweets intended for her to her great uncle instead. She wouldn't pretend that it's normal to expect my DD to use a bathroom full of urine soaked towels. We found some photos from 10 years ago at the weekend & it was so hard to see the couple they used to be with my DD.

Sticker that is so sad. As you say- new reality is dealing with unpredictable toddlers who never grow up. So sorry.

There is little point attempting something that they will resist. The barriers only build up.

Instead focus on the areas they might accept support. For example my dad let me manage a rental property which both gave an insight into how poorly my mum was able to manage money/tax but also enabled me to build a small rainy day fund, described to her a float for renovations. When my dad was very poorly my mum agreed to allow me to attend Health Visitor appointments, and he not died suddenly I think I could have got access via supporting her without challenging her competence.

In the short term the big one is money. My mum, encouraged by her bank, did some very strange things with her funds including tying much of it up long term into stock market linked investments. It could have been worse. £5000 or so went to fraudsters. We ended up having to extend our mortgage to lend her the money so she could move into sheltered housing. Not what my dad would have expected after saving all his life.

So pick your battles and consider tactics. I would suggest talking to the brothers about a 'great accountant who can sort out their tax as long as they just hand over paperwork and sign poa or third party access to one of you'. Money is less emotional and as long as you don't question their competence you might gain some traction.

I would also encourage them to get used to other people coming in. So rather than do a big clean up yourself try to enlist their cleaner and her friends, perhaps one of whom might be a gardener to 'help'.

And also reassure your husband that he cannot solve their problems without their agreement. I ended up having a family conversation including my teenagers where we all agreed that if my mother, who had failed to answer the phone yet again, was lying on the floor dying, I could not take the blame. She had refused any form of panic button and would not even leave a key with a neighbour. And, almost in defiance, would not tell me if she had booked a holiday.

One of the things that helped my mum and dad accept help initially was friends who positioned a blue badge as 'saving money on parking' and attendance allowance as 'getting some money back after all these years'. Once that extra money was there (even though they don't need it), then having a bit of extra help round the house and garden which was paid for by the AA/ council tax rebate seemed much more acceptable.

POA was a bit of a battle till others told them it was so important and kept their affairs out of the hands of social services if there was a problem (ok, bit of overkill, but it worked).

The new relationship is the hardest by far though

Thank you everyone. The brothers have had POA in place for around 10 years. She had her blue badge interview a couple of weeks ago, but we haven't heard the outcome yet. Goodness knows what she will have said to them, but anyone in their right mind would have been able to see that she can't walk. Hopefully the Battle of the Buzzer has been won following this weekend's emergency.

They have a cleaner and technically a gardener, but we're working on a proper housekeeper, rather than just a cleaner whipping around with the hoover for a couple of hours a week. Once we can get someone from Age UK in place we know they will make helpful suggestions which might slip into place without anyone noticing. Unfortunately, I'm one of life's organisers and get annoyed that there is so much we could put in place to give them a better quality of life, but can't whilst they are being stubborn. My FiL walked out of the last discussion, but it took him 5 minutes to leave the room at a snail's pace with his wheely frame!

We think the crunch will come when one of their friends admits that they are demanding too much of them and won't help anymore. It's the usual situation, where friends think they are being incredibly helpful by doing housework for them, shopping & acting as a taxi service. We secretly wish the friends would step back from acting as unpaid skivvies, so we can get them the practical, independent help they need and allow their friends to go back to being friends and having fun with them again.

This has been so therapeutic....once again, thanks for sympathising.

Speak to the local taxi service, and ask about an account. You might be able to book in advance for regular trips like to church (or to the polling booth!). You might alsio find that they have one or two trusted senior ddrivers who will undertake duties such as escorting people to hospital appointments.

Obviously I suggested this but did not achieve it. Still the account is useful in case carers, grandchildren or others need to use a taxi when visiting. It also helped with the arguments over the car (which luckily my mum was unable to cope with the admin around insurance or tax, so enough threatening letters to pursuade her it had to go - except she inevitably forgot the next day!)

On a daily carer visit, the memory clinic usefully said they would not prescribe Aricept unless they were confident that arrangements were in place to ensure the right dosage was taken daily. So a B&Q safe for the tablets, which come in a blister pack from the pharmacy and a daily carer who gives her pills. These appointments have now been extended to include sorting out paundry, and organising a weekly shower, and indeed to a couple of outings a week with her favourite carer.

You learn. So she does not need help with the shower. Its just that the "boiler is so complicated" so the carer helps turn it on.

I would strongly recommend being there for a memory clinic appointment. My mother, too, is bright, and very good at giving confident but incorrect answers. It was a chance to learn more myself about her condition. And, because I needed the diagnosis so badly, I deliberately wound her up on the journey to the clinic meaning she was too discombobulated to put her mind to the questions. I think she still scored around 27/30, eg almost normal, despite not being able to change channels on a TV, work the boiler or cook. Indeed at this point she was not really sure who i was. Her next score was better. They thought it was the tablets!

And an almost celebration. My mother had a huge number of bank acocunts. I think she liked to pop into branches for a chat. My solution was to trawl round London with passport, driving license and origional POA and let banks take copies. Cheaper than certifying lots of copies, and safer than sending the origional off. Plus each had their own requirements and often would not take self certified copies. Anyway the last term bond matures at the end of the month, so I check to see that the POA is in place so I can sign the forms. Errr no. Yes they have the paperwork but have done nothing with it. Still a really helpful man has promised to sort it out. Its only taken two and a half years to get to a point where all her funds are accessible. And now off to her bank to try to get them to sort her card reader out after a spectacularly unhelpful conversation with a call centre. I wish I had someone to do all this for me!

You have made me giggle. Been on the phone to the hospital because we thought she was being released today, but she won't phone FiL & he won't phone her. Told the nurses that because there is a strip of water between us we won't be able to get her home and they need to sort out patient transport or a taxi. I pity the taxi driver, unless he keeps the meter running as she tries to get out, but she doesn't need any help with her mobility....

Needmoresleep, you mention a score of 27/30 at the Memory Clinic. DM's GP did a test on her when I took her in a few weeks ago and she scored 23/30. The GP said 30 was the worst possible score, so 23 was pretty bad. Surely 27 would be even worse?

Feel a bit daunted by your experiences with POA - I have to wait for a final diagnosis before we can get that activated and then I will have to go along to the bank...

Hope NMS doesn't mind me answering on her behalf, our Mothers were at the same Memory clinic I think. 27/30 refers to the MMSE which is scored out of 30 - 30 being all answered correctly. 27 is the cut off point for a normal score. My Mum pulled off 29/30 at her initial assessment but was still diagnosed after CT results and her scores on another questionnaire. I think your Mum's GP is probably referring to a different questionnaire and scoring system ? They do vary a bit with the questionnaires they use depending on the clinic.

The MMSE may not always show the full effect of someones dementia depending on type - my mum scored 25 on her last MMSE, but on the MOKA test which is more about language and visual impairment she got a very low score

Well I have just googled them both and I think the one DM did was the MMSE. So 23 would indicate mild cognitive impairment?
Ah well, hopefully the Memory Clinic test will shine more light. When the appointment finally comes through!

In other news, DH had to deal with a bit of a drama last night (as I was asleep) - DM pressed the Panic button (which she has only had for a week) and a woman from the Care Agency came but couldn't get in as she had put the chain on. After asking if they could break the door down/call the Police, she finally came downstairs - she hadn't even realised that she had pressed it I will ring her later...

SPT, indeed. I think they were diagnosed in the same week. And indeed there was more than one occassion when my sanity was saved by lunch with SPT following a 5.30am start and the stress of getting my mother to an appointment. Those early days, when I needed to take over, against my mother's wishes, were so difficult.

The memory test has changed, at least where my mum is. I did not sit through the last one but her score was much closer to her actual capacity. This is a good thing. Being at the memory clinic meant I had my own questionaire where I could detail what she could and couldn't do in daily life. (Wash herself if prompted etc) Plus challenge some of her answers. At that point, soon after a fall, she was not sure if I were her sister or mother. Yet she knew the names of her grandchildren. She simply made some up.

My understanding is that the GP does a screening test. The memory clinic one is much longer, about two hours. It was genuinely interesting. In my mum's case the damage is only in one place, and affects her orientation. No problems with speech or visual skills.

BigTilly, I don't question that having too many assets has been a lot easier than too few, but taking over three years after my dad died brought its own problems. I'm almost there. Her tax is up to date (there was an Inland Revenue investigation), her property renovated and tenanted, and finance assessible. I own the Tshirt. I don't think registering any POA was simple.

Some tips:

1. With banks, the Inland Revenue and Local Authority, go into a branch if you can and take with you two forms of photo ID, plus a driving licence and current bank statement (overkill but they all want different things) and the POA. Fill in the POA form there and then, and have them check it. Some are complicated. The branch can copy the documents, and staff can certify and it all to head office. Not all branches will do this, and some require an appointment, so worth checking. (Your branch can phone up other branches if they can't do it - and ime call centres usually don;'t have a clue and frequently give the wrong information.) You need to make an appointment with the Tax ffice, but again worth doing. When I Googled the procedure the internet was full of complaints about the Inland Revenue losing things. Do of this is as soon as you can. Also before submitting anything, phone to check that POA is registered.

1. The POA can take a while to register. Getting a third party mandate set up on an account is much quicker. So do this first and then wait for the POA. This should give you access to internet banking. I set up a small savings account (no cheque book and no direct debits allowed) with a debit card, so carers can draw money if needed. I also e a float in the medicine safe.

1. Utilities. UK based call centres are usually more understanding than overseas ones, who will go by the book. To be honest the only way to deal with some is to lie and pretent to be your parent.

1. Set up a mail redirect, so everything comes to you. If your parent won't sign I think the Post Office form allows you to, if you take in the POA document.

1. I drafted a load of letters to people, like pension funds, giving a change of address, and got my mother to sign. This is important. Some will write every couple of years or so to check the person is still alive, and you need to respond quickly or the pension is cancelled.

1. Junk mail. I was drowning in it, honestly I filled a whole skip with paper, so sent a standard email asking that my mother was taken off the mailing list. Some were really persistent. After three months I changed the email to say that my mother had died and that this continuing mail was causing me great distress.

1. This is a difficult one, but I decided early on that my family should not be of pocket as a result of me having to give up a lot of time to manage my mothers affairs. Its been emotionally difficult and time consuming, and I would not want to add to any resentment. She has more than enough to cover her needs. I charge standard professional rates for managing the property, and reimburse myself for all my costs, even if feels mean not to treat my mother to a cup of coffee or for the petrol when I visit. The POA also allows me to charge for my time. I am careful to use an accountant for both her affairs and mine, so there is transparency. (I am not the only beneficiary, and scarily any misuse of my Attorney Powers is potentially a criminal act, so at probate I need to be in a position to provide clear records.) Everyone's situation is different, but it is important to think arrangements through especially if a burden is being shared unequally.

That is so helpful Needmoresleep, thank you very much!

And your last point is very interesting. Particularly about the misuse of Attorney Powers. Would everyone need to keep clear records? My DM has some money in the bank and gets a professional and state pension, but passed the house to me about 9 years ago, so although she does have some money/income, she does not have a huge amount. What kind of records would they need to see?

Nms your wisdom and advice here is excellent- certainly your advice about poa is spot on as it has been a nightmare for my dh- some banks are much better than others but it has taken so much time.
And I completely agree about charging for your time and costs- it has been the only way dh's family have managed the visits and time. I still have not quite sorted that with dm but will now prompted- it actually helps with the feelings of resentment especially if the burden is not shared equally(!)

I think the Office of Public Guardian say that you have to keep clear seperation between your own finance and the finance of the person you have POA responsibility for. I also think you are supposed to keep clear records. Potential challenges/complaints come from someone like the Inland Revenue or Local Authority, the latter if they felt there been "deliberate deprivation of assets", but equally from other beneficiaries if they feel their share of the estate has affected. My understanding is that it is not unusual for people who have not take much interest in the care side to then be much much more proactive when it comes to probate. When it is a lot of money, it is sensible to ensure there are records.

One of my big regrets is that we did not get the POA drafted in good time but in a hurry just after my mother's fall, and not using a Solicitor. I was asked to be the sole Attorney but have not had any proper advice, and I am finding that Solicitors are pretty wary of providing advice if they feel there is potential for conflict. The solution would be for me to clear decisions with other beneficiaries, so I was not making decisions, like to move assets from property to stocks and shares, which might then impact on the size of the estate, on my own. But there is no requirement for others to support me by doing this. Which leaves me accountable with others having the benefit of hindsight. What's more OPG require me to manage her assets actively. So essentially I am managing the inheritance of others, with potentially tough sanctions if I get it wrong. That said if my mother had sorted out a POA on her own, she would have probably put it with an expensive Partner in a local law firm. Given how complicated things have been, it would have cost a fortune.

But enough of my whinging. And my approach now is to inform others of the bigger decisions with a "if I don't hear from you I will take it that you agree", and sit back and wait for the non-reply.

Gifts are a whole different issue. My understanding is that:

1. You can't make gifts as an Attorney, unless they are already established before the person lost capacity eg birthday gifts to grandchildren. Even then you need to be even handed between your children and those of siblings.

1. The Inland Revenue limits gifts out of capital are limited to £3,500 in each of the last 7 years of life. I dont think gifts out of income are restricted.

My issue is that my mother has received some amazing help and kindness from people who did not know her before she became ill. I think it is right, and indeed in her interest, to behave generously in contributing to the staff Christmas fund or donating to the residents annual Christmas party, give a nice birthday present to her wonderful carer, and make an annual donation, in lieu of contributions to Sunday collections, to her parish. There are also organisations that meant a lot to my parents and who my mother would like to support. In my mother's case these can be afforded out of income, and I think it would be wrong not to make them.

In terms of records I am relying mainly on putting everything through the one bank account. If I had to put together something more detailed I could work back from there. I think challenges are unusual, but I think you are expected to provide information if needed.

I did borrow money from her to buy a small flat near her, but used a solicitor to draw up a loan agreement and I pay an above market rate of interest.

Again, that is really helpful!

I am hoping that birthday/Christmas money for the DC (and DH and I) - usually £100 per person per event, so £800 per year in total would not be an issue as a "gift" once DH and I have POA! Other than that, the money would be spent on her care/needs.

Tilly,

I dont think that sounds like a problem. However three sets of rules to follow around gifts:

1. What you are allowed to do as Attorney. Guidance is on the OPG website.

1. Tax Rules, especially IHT. Here guidance should be on the Inland Revenue website.

1. "Deliberate Deprivation of Assets." Google and you will find guidance from places like Age UK. This is when a Local Authority is being asked to pick up responsibility for care costs and they decide that the person has deliberately disposed of assets. I don't know anything beyond the fact that this exists.

Twenty ten,
You may need to ensure that the recharging of costs is allowable in the POA. I am pretty sure that charging for time has to be written in specifically. If there is enough money to allow for both, it is worth seeking legal advice. Once registered it is very hard to change anything.

You really do want to avoid a situation where the sibling putting in the time is landed with the related costs. My issue was that if others were "too busy" earning to take on the Attorney role, and that role was essentially preventing me from working, I too should be compensated.

If I could do things sensibly I would be following my accountant's advice and taking as much out of the estate as I can (legitimately obviously!) and ensuring assets are liquid before probate and a massive IHT bill, which I think needs to be settled within about 60 days. But I can't.

This has led to some silly decisions. For example I would have liked to keep one of my mother's properties empty so that family could use it, and she could have more visitors. She was happy with this, and certainly does not need the rent. But too late for her to decide, and since most if not all the use would be by my family, though invitations would have gone out to all, this could look as if I was taking advantage and abusing my Attorney role. So we have ended up buying yet another property for us to use, as day trips were proving to much. The end result is that there is even less liquidity to help settle any IHT bill, and we are having to pay interest both to my mother and to the mortgage company.

All a bit of a first world problem (or maybe the ultimate in MN stealth boasting). But it is really worth thinking through what might cause resentment and how to even out responsibilities.

Thanks NMS-really useful observations. For Dh's family it has been pretty straightforward so far- dh is managing the money-only their house involved and that has been rented out and will now be sold- with small amounts of money going to siblings to cover petrol costs based on mileage and payment so DBIL could get across to see MIL before she died and stay for her funeral from OZ-all transparent between the family.
My DM has not yet done POA but reimburses me expenses plus a little extra- but I now feel that we should discuss her contributing to my car as I spend at least 11/2 days a week sorting shopping/doctors etc etc and taking her out-meaning I can work less-and as you say why should my family suffer?

And NMS I understand how you feel about decisions you were forced to make which do not make sense. So much of PIL's stuff went to charity shops because the house needed to be ready for tenants and there was no time to do otherwise-which could have been handled better.But we do what we can-and