2:2 now not a 'good enough' degree?

[Cortina]

I saw a thread, earlier today, I think on AIBU. Someone was cruising for a 2:2 at Uni. They said that this wasn't enough to secure employment and many were agreeing.

In my day, insert old git icon , a 2:2, especially from a well regarded university, was a perfectly respectable degree.

Have things really changed so much?

It is ironic that Universities complain about 'devalued' A Levels and say that, due to the plethora of A Grades, they have to introduce entrance examinations to distinguish between applicants. And then they go and grade-inflate their own qualifications ...
In my day [oldie emoticon] a Desmond was the standard, run-of-the-mill result, a 2i was impressive and a First was very rare (I think we only had one in my year).

Even in my day, some 25 years ago, someone coming out of a Russel Group University was not really going to get near top jobs with a 2:2.

Now there are so many former 'poly' universities offering less than demanding courses that a 2:2 is really not going to cut it in the current recession.

It is a worry when kids (whose parents have no idea about university) study a subject which is completely useless from a university with a mediocre reputation.

My second cousin - first in his part of the family to go to uni. He went to Solent Universoty (about 4 years old, used to be Southampton Institute) and read Football Studies. Graduated 2 years ago and now works in Co-op in his home town. No chance of getting a serious job really. Thousands of pounds in debt for a truly mickey mouse degree.

Where is the fairness in that? Now I know it was up to him to research what to do and where to go, however how could he really? Not really graduate calibre, parents who have no idea, school who wants to get students into university at all costs to look good on their results, and universities who need to make money, so market crap (albeit attractive) degree subjects to rake it in.

There are league tables which are the way for the uninformed to find out what good unis and subjects are. Can we really excuse taking football studies as naivety?

Of course it helps to have connections with someone in chambers - no doubt about it - but it's not essential.

I've seen a substantial number of students from my uni get pupillage without connections, some of whom I've had to talk into applying because they're convinced without them they have no chance, so I feel quite strongly about encouraging students to apply and not let this put them off.

No, not naivety, stupidity.

But then again I think perhaps universities should not offer courses which are a blatant waste of time and money.

And if you really are uninformed you would not necessarily know about such league tables would you?

Sort of on subject but also slightly off on a tangent. 'A desmond' was a 2:2 and a Geoff Hurst was a first and I think a 'Douglas Hurd' was a third but what was slang for us 2:1ers? I can't remember?

There are leagues tables certainly. Unfortunately though I planned well enough in that I planned to teach and most of my colleagues went on to do that: I couldn't pursue that due to a change in personal circs and then found my degree (in religion and philosophy- never sure if that's old school or not, middlling I guess) didn't have as much 'trade in' value as something else may have.

It was however perfect for me when chosen, so just bad luck I guess.

When I started work 10 years ago a 2:1 or above was required and many of my colleagues had 2:1s.

When I was doing graduate recruitment last year it was highly unlikely we would have taken on someone with a 2:1 as there were so many candidates with a first plus extensive work experience, mostly foreign students.

The British applicants' CVs just really didn't compete as very few of them had work experience assuming that their degree result would be good enough..

'The British applicants' CVs just really didn't compete as very few of them had work experience assuming that their degree result would be good enough..'

This. I worked in a RG university up until 3 years ago, in a humanities department.

We had more than a few who didn't work and got a 2i. And then a rude shock after graduation.

I had a temp working for me who was about to begin university as a very new university.

She was studying business, but didn't want to work as she wanted to 'focus on her studies'.

I tried in vain to impress on her what a mistake this was.

You see, I went to one of those universities that hothouse brilliant foreign students who speak 5 languages, have a first and worked, too.

And that, GetOrf, brings me to highlight another boon for the person who goes into the Forces before university: he/she, depending how long they are in for, will matriculate/apply as a mature student. The standards will be different and the parent's income won't be taken into consideration for funding once he/she is past a certain age.

The worke xperience thing I hope will work for me- until I went back to Uni I had a job as high as I could get without a degree in a field related to where I want to be.

Still no guarantees though; even with an MA, decent degree and bundles of experience the fact is that where we are there are no jobs. Unless you want to work as an 'adult fild extra' anyway (is that film extra who is adult, or extra in adult films I wonder?)

Reality is that until things pick up nothing will guarantee anyone anything now. The days of leaving with a ":2 / 3rd but a lot of battle stories centreing around drink are long gone: I fear for some of DH's colleagues who celebrate scraping in each year, I don't think they have a clue.

fwiw I don't remember any of my friends at uni (or myself) thinking we could do a humanities degree (however good) and just walk straight into a well paid job

jobs were hardly guaranteed in the eighties

we just accepted it, worked in any old job, muddled through until eventually we found something

people do seem to have very high expectations these days- at a time when the chances of fulfilling those expectations do not look too good

Having said that, statistics for future employment from my department look pretty good, insofar as they all seem to get employed and many of them in areas where they can use their degree. And as they did definitely not all get Firsts (we are not totally inflated!), that must mean there are chances out there for graduates. But possibly, they didn't all have immediate plain sailing, and possibly they had to start lower down the ladder than anticipated.

I would like to know how the Open Uni is thought of amongst all this?

DH had 400 applicants when he last advertised for staff...they had over 100 with 2.1 degrees.

In the end they narrowed it down to extra curricular activities and interviewed those with 2.1 or firsts who had run a uni club, or had been head boy/girl or were treasurer of a club or who had major external interests or were heavily involved in charities. He also checked out Facebook, anyone with dodgy photos or belonged to dodgy groups (i.e photos of drunk parties/orgies and racist/sexist groups) were eliminated as well.

He said it was the only way to differentiate the candidates! He was only allowed to interview 6 people for each post.

I got a 2:2 from a well regarded university in an old fashioned subject, graduated 11 years ago
Got a job for a multinational straight-away.

I'd be buggered now though.

What I do hope for my own dcs is that they will not think of themselves as buggered if they don't get a job for a multinational straightaway.

Miggsie, don't most people protect their Facebook profiles?

Work experience always counts for more in the long term but it's getting the foot in the door in the first place.

In the old days, before people checked - thinking early 1980s, I know many who falsified details, said they had A'levels when they didn't and a degree when they didn't and so on. I knew one chap that got on to a highly regarded BT training course of some sort (you needed 2 A'levels - he had none). He went on to be a star performer for them and I don't think anyone ever found out. He's since left.

I had to give a reference some time back for a lovely girl who had worked during the Xmas period. She was a Uni student, she had upped her A' level grades, for temp work over Easter. I think she still got the job, I gave her a good reference, she did a good job. I said she may have inflated the grades a little. Thing is she wouldn't have got the temp work if she hadn't, she wouldn't have met the entry criteria.

Not condoning dishonesty but I can see why people must be tempted.

I can see why employers would chop applications from someone with a 2.2, but depending on the job (I have a technical background) I would interview someone with all As at A level and a third, I have known several brilliantly gifted men with these qualifications. They were busy having fun at university and all had a great work ethic once they got to earn money and do a real job with impact on the world.

Carol Vorderman also allegedly got a third and this hasn't held her back (trial of one I know).

Word of warning here: some of the students I am currently seeing with all As at A-level are very far from brilliant; indeed, some of them seem barely literate. I don't know what is happening, but our first intake of As-only-students has been quite problematic. So I would at least test them in some other ways, before I deduced that partying was the only thing that had got in the way of their university studies.

Hmmmm....DS also wants to design skateboards. Perhaps I should encourage that ambition too.... don't need a degree for that.

I think employers see 2:2s and thirds as more acceptable in conceptual subjects such as maths and physics where it is entirely possible to just hit a conceptual brick wall. By comparison, to get a third in (eg) history is actually quite hard and employers know it.

Also, the fact that there are not enough maths, physics and engineering graduates to go around means that the chop is lower. Ultimately it comes down to our old friends supply and demand.

ledodgy- there wasn't a nn for a 2:1. Obviously thought far too boring/ common to deserve one

You would be stunned at the number of people who have their FAcebook profiles wide open!

I'm 27 sand have 2 degrees (law and psychology) from 2 unis (Bristol and UWE). During each course I was basically told if you don't get a first or a high 2.1 (with lots of voluntary work) you're not finding a job.