Probably controversial, private/state-so don't read if you're not interested in a debate!

[seeker]

On another forum I occasionally visit it appears to be accepted that private school children have better manners, more self confidence, present themselves better and are generally more sorted than state school children - including those at state selective schools.

I have been thoroughly told off for suggesting IF this is true it might in large part be due to the fact that private school children are drawn from the more privileged end of society where a sense of self-worth and "entitlement" is seen as part of their birth-right. And that these children would grow up with those attributes more or less regardless of what school they went to.
(I say more or less because obviously they would probably get it knocked out of them at one of the failing inner-city schools full of knives, drugs and gangs so beloved of the Daily Mail).

And I think he reason these children are more noticable at private schools is that there isn't the stratum of troubles, disadvantaged children whose backgrounds make it very difficult to have high self esteem and self-confidence.

So, nature or nurture?

Duh! Of course, what you say is true. The children who go to private schools either have parents who are relatively wealthy in being able to afford the fees or incredibly motivated (with children who are very bright) in order to access the bursaries.

Of course,social, behavioural and many health problems are more prevalent amongst people on low or no incomes and this is likely to be reflected in their children sadly.

And before anyone starts with the whole 'The worst behaved kids I know go to x private school down the road where without exception the children are drug taking, hooligans', of course children who go to private schools can also behave badly and grow up to be unemployed, criminal blah-di-blah.

So, yes, the children who go to private schools are less likely to suffer from all manner of social, behavioural and health problems which are associated with poverty and more likely to be academically and otherwise aspirational. Once they apply to the school they have already self-selected as valuing education etc etc (no, that's not to say that children who go to state schools automatically don't) and then in private schools they're more likely to be educated with like-minded peers, less likely to be disrupted by children who DO have behavioural problems (who after all can be asked to leave unliek in state sector), more likely to be pushed academcially etc etc.

So no, it's hardly a revealation that they are likely to do better in all sorts of ways.

Would they do better even if they went to state schools? Almost certainly. Would they do as well. Possibly and possibly not. Largely depenednet on state school they went to and levels of support offered by parents and peers.

I think it is a bit like real life and a mix of both -impossible to say really.
I am a great supporter of state education-I think that all schools should be so good that you don't need to pay. However I do know 2 boys who went to their local primary and weren't doing too well (they didn't pick the best of role models for friends).Their parents changed them to a private school and they became different DSs-polite, articulate and self confident.
I think that the private schools must give them the self confidence because they are much better prepared to pass interviews for Oxbridge etc.
My DS won a bursary for a week on an Outward Bound course when he was 14, the money was put forward by our local (well known) public school. 3 local DCs got one and were invited for drinks, with parents, with the Head of the school. I was very impressed because he really talked to the DCs as if he was really interested and not just being polite.They all responded well to that approach and I thought at the time that it would do a lot for self confidence if they met it all the time. They had to go through quite a selection process to get there.
However, it is a bit like chicken and egg to say whether it is school or home. I know that a friend of my father's didn't do terribly well at his private school but he certainly has the charm and self confidence to move mountains!

Local boys, who go to a private school can sound and behave like yobs, I have got a very bad impression from what I have seen of them, but I guess that they know how to behave when it matters.

It is obviously possible to be well mannered confident and well spoken at a state school.

I think the way children behave is partly down to their characters/genes.

If your parents are well mannered and speak well this usually rubs off (although there may be a temporary rebellion against ones parents speech at some point).

Private Schools tend to reinforce good manners in the following ways:

In private schools I have experienced the children shake the teachers hand and say "good afternoon" at the end of the day. At my secondary school we used to stand up and say good morning mrs so and so when the teacher came in (don't know if this is done in state sector secondary or not)

The class sizes are smaller so children have more opportunities to stand up and speak to the class/school. The teachers probably have more energy to reinforce the manners as they have fewer children to comandeer.

Private schools tend to have traditional lunch arrangements where a teacher sits at the table and the children are mixed up so there are children of different ages at the table. This encourages good table manners, and proper conversation. At DS state school the children sit with their peers and little staff supervision and their table manners are awful.

Children in private schools tend to do more sport and a broader range of activities during the school day so maybe the children are more stimulated and less likely to misbehave.

I think it would be better if there was less of a gulf between the state and private system in this country and if both sectors learned from each other.

However to go back to the children themselves I think there are at least as many children capable of poor behaviour in the private sector. Just because people have money it does not mean they will bring up their children well. Often children who do not get on in the constraints of the state sector (boys in particular) are moved to private school so there may well be more children in private school class with the potential to misbehave. However the class sizes are smaller so it is easier to deal with the bad behaviour.

IME of being a private school pupil (on full assisted place and poor background). Lunchtimes were barely supervised, and children just sat in their own cliques at the tables. And we never shook teachers' hands at the end of a day! Class sizes for many subjects were 35 (with science/art/cookery being 17/18). My school was an academic hothouse, very selective academically, which had a huge influence on behaviour, that virtually all the kids were able and keen to learn. In my day, as long as you were behaving and doing your school work, little interest was shown in your personal welfare, would hope things have changed rather since then.

In terms of confidence; of course it's going to be a mixture of nature and nurture. There were a few troubled girls with mental health problems and low self-esteem from quite privileged backgrounds. But by and large coming from wealthy homes did I think give girls a lot of self-assurance.

I think broadly speaking you're correct seeker. That's why the only thing that really irritates me about the private/state debate is when some people ignorantly assume that teaching must be better in private schools because the raw results may be higher/the kids look smarter etc etc......... duh, no!!

IME really genuinely bright children do as well in a good state school which sets by ability and attracts really switched on teachers. They also seem to have just as much confidence - in some cases, possibly more genuine deep rooted confidence rather than a veneer.

Yes, I think on the whole, seeker, it seems so.
But Violet, I so agree with state school deep rooted confidence, rather than the occasionally superficial at private.

Some private school children and parents seem to lack many social graces. The privilege they think they have, which comes with having pots of money, can make them arrogant.
( Thinks with of huge 4x4's swooping past small peugot never a hand raised in thanks...sneers at lack of cool things, parties jack wills etc.)

IME of being privately educated at an all girls school I think it definately equipped me with some good life skills and provided me with a level of confidence that perhaps I wouldn't have had otherwise. I am almost certain I achieved more academically than I would have going to the local state.

My best friend at primary school was/is academically brighter than me and because of financial constraints couldn't attend private as intended and failed alot of her GCSE's at the local state I have no doubt she would have achieved more at a private school.

Negatives for the private school - incredibly bitchy, I was bullied and some teaching was very questionable.

My parents sacrificed a lot to send my sister and I to private school because our local state was so shocking and I will be forever grateful despite the negatives!

I went to a 'bog standard' state whilst DH went to one of the best public schools in the country so this is something that comes up a lot! There are undoubtedly advantages of going to a good private school especially in extra-curricular activities, smaller classes and the social polish it gives you. Also, I wouldn't want to generalise about children who go to either as clearly there's a huge range of people in both schools. I think you are also clearly right that it is very difficult to separate out the influence of the school from the influence of the background of the child. Certainly at my large state school we were set for most things and, much as I hate to say it, that tended to mean that we were socially divided as well as academically divided so my education wasn't really disrupted by people who didn't want to learn etc as everyone I was taught with was motivated.

Having said that, I do really worry about some of the negative social aspects of private schools. I think these were clearest by looking at peers at uni rather than at children who are on their best behaviour to their parents' friends. There were very many nice private school people but also a sizeable minority who were the vilest people I've had the misfortune to know. They very clearly took the view that they were better than people who didn't fit their narrow standards of background and possessions. They had exclusive dining and drinking clubs for people just like them and didn't acknowledge students who fell outside of it. On one memorable occasion then went to the local council estate whilst drunk and shouted 'you're poor we're not' through people's letterboxes at 3 in the morning. I hate the idea of a child of mine judging their own worth and that of others on these narrow criteria although I suspect that the attitude of parents has a lots to do with this.

The other thing that worries me far more is the impact of private girls' schools on self-esteem. A lot of my friends were superficially polished and confident, especially with adults, but had very low self-esteem from the bitchy environment of their schools. Again there seemed to be a lot of judging on appearance and possession and vile catty behaviour that chips away at a person's self image. Those who were popular seemed hyper-aware of what they wore and how they appeared to others. I would be very very reluctant to send my DD to a girls' school having seen what it did to people, whatever the academic benefits.

Sorry that's very long.

That's interesting catz.
This issue of the 'veneer' of confidence really interests me. I do think that on a surface level, a private school education can give that 'polish', that ability to seem at ease with adults, and in formal situations. But of course, that's a learned skill, it doesn't really tell you how a young person really feels about themself.

I also agree that when you go to University, that's a real eye opener. I hadn't really come across many private school educated people until I went to Uni, and I have to admit, I was surprised to realise that a)they weren't more intelligent than everyone else b) some of them undoubtedly were disadvantaged because they had achieved inflated grades and an inflated sense of their own ability. Some of them really struggled with the fact that they were now working alongside others who weren't from a rarifies environment.

I think probably it's a good thing as a parent to really try to view education in the long term, and I mean really long term, thinking about how your child will fare at University/in work/in the 'real world', rather than just thinking about whether they will get a fantastic set of GCSEs/A levels etc. I don't see at as successful if a child gets top grades, gets into a good University and then burns out/ realises they can't keep up, or just isn't good at socialising, making friends or any of the other things that make us happy as adults.

whoops, rarified!

This is an MN favourite: "I went to a bog-standard and was surprised when I got to Uni to find that private school kids weren't more intelligent."
Can I put the opposite view. At my Redbrick we didn't have this us/them, private/state mentality but one girl did stick out. She came from a disadvantaged background and was the first in her family/school/whatever to go to University. She was vile. She thought that she was the bee's knees because she went to Uni and none of her mates did. It was a real shock to her to find that the place was swarming with equally bright people. She couldn't cope with not being top of the pile any more.
People of any background can find reasons to feel superior, if it's in their character to do so.

catz - think you are pretty much spot on as regards academic private girls's schools and bitchiness - one thing though - IME the most unpleasant behaviour was from those who were insecure themselves and not all that popular - the very pretty wealthy popular girls tended to be quite kind to me.

There was this nature & nurture article in the news recently, and while it's looking at exam results rather than manners/'togetherness', it does suggest that social class is a very important factor in educational outcome. It's hard to know whether private education is cause or effect of this though.

interesting link snorkle

Interesting article, that, snorkle, thanks.

another nature v nurture article re intelligence

"far from having their IQs determined at the moment of conception, people?s potential intelligence is almost infinitely flexible"

?Raising someone in an upper-middle-class environment versus a lower-class environment is worth 12 to 18 points of IQ ? a truly massive effect,? he said.

Snorkle, that is an interesting article and unfortunately does seem to be spot on with what I've seen in my generation (bright kids from poorest backgrounds not doing as well as not so bright kids from middle class backgrounds). I wonder whether there's much research on the previous generation where the parents hadn't had much opportunity for education or social mobility. Certainly a lot of people I know with professional parents (including me) have grandparents who were down mines/in factories at 14 so had no real chance to progress. Then grammar schools and better education gave their children (or a minority of them) more of a chance to reach their potential. Given that social mobility seems to be decreasing again it is depressing to think that the result may well be more children who don't have the chance to make the most of their potential.

TotalChaos - I'm sure you're right, I wouldn't want to write off everyone at a particular kind of school. It's just the atmosphere at some girls' schools does seem unpleasant. Having boys around does seem to curb the worst bitchiness as boys don't tend to be particularly impressed by it.

Have to concur with some previous comments.

You can't make generalisations. It shouldn't be assumed that because people are rich they don't have bad manners or come, from dysfunctional families. Violent behaviour, including child abuse and partner beating, is not restricted to the less affluent sections of society anymore than is drug abuse and alcoholism. Neither is the ability to be a decent parent based on income.

There are badly behaved gobshites in private schools as well. A couple of years ago the police were called to a pub near Downside when a group of sixth formers decided to smash up the lounge bar for "a bit of a laugh"! There are also lazy little toerags who see no reason to learn because at the end of the day "Daddy will provide" and not all rich parents share Bill Gates' admirable ideas about inherited wealth.

Private schools also have children whom some parents may consider "undesirable influences" on their kids, given that several now take the children from some of the Russian oligarchs.

It's swings and roundabouts and we can't generalise about any school, either private or maintained. At the end of the day you "pays your money and makes your choice".

My daughter will not be going to any of the local state secondary schools but is going to go to a very well thought of (figures and anecdotal evidence back it up) state school. Her sister will follow her.

I had no intention of sending her to any of the local schools because they just didn't have the same positive reputation.

She didn't want to board (she has asbergers so I didn't want to push that) and her father had taken against some of the local private schools. One actually offered reduced rates to police officers and she would have gone there if she hadn't got the place that both she and I wanted.

My DH went to both state and private schools and is adamant that the behaviour and teaching standards in the private were significantly poorer. And that was a private school that was revered at the time as being excellent. He would not countenance our DCs going to a private school (partly) because of this. Instead, we have been fortunate enough to send them to excellent state schools where behaviour is very good, but we consider the teaching of manners, consideration and courtesy to be our job as parents.

God, that sounds pious. But it's true.

ha ha, yes clam it does, but I agree with you - manners, courtesy, respect for fellow planet sharers etc surely that's what parenting is all about?

I suspect that one of the contributory factors in for instance, not getting outstandingly good results from schools who have sink estates as large part of their catchment area is peer group antithesis towards aspirations.

Any school can do the good manners etc. I went to a secondary modern and we all stood up when the teacher came in and said 'Good morning Miss X' or 'Good morning Sir'and they were equally polite back. Teachers sat on dinner tables and made conversation. They had an excellent reputation for good behaviour-the best in the town-and were anxious to keep it. We were not allowed to eat in the street etc. The Head was all for producing good citizens. I think we could do with more of it. (This was some time ago-don't know if it would be possible these days!).
It is a bit off the tack of OP but I was shocked to read in the Sunday Times today that lots of private school pupils have tutors on top! I would have thought that if you were paying huge fees you wouldn't expect to have to employ a tutor. There is a new move to have them to 'hold hands and help' through university!
I am against DCs being tutored for grammar school (in the belief that if they deserve a place they should be able to do it on their own merits) so I am obviously way out of touch!!!

Only addressing the OP here...

One of the reasons for choosing independent education is to be with other children who are civilised/socialised. I will certainly hold my hand up as a parent in this category.

As a teacher in an independent school, I would certainly say that a high priority for me and my colleagues is the issue of manners. It is totally unacceptable for a pupil to have bad manners. They have to say good morning if you say good morning to them. They have to hold the door open for one another, and pick up items that someone else has dropped. They have to clear their dining area, even if it is not their mess, etc, etc, etc. They have to be kind to one another.

These values I did not see when I taught in state schools.

As to whether it is nature or nurture - nature gives the school the critical mass to enable them to nurture the rest.