Probably controversial, private/state-so don't read if you're not interested in a debate!

[seeker]

On another forum I occasionally visit it appears to be accepted that private school children have better manners, more self confidence, present themselves better and are generally more sorted than state school children - including those at state selective schools.

I have been thoroughly told off for suggesting IF this is true it might in large part be due to the fact that private school children are drawn from the more privileged end of society where a sense of self-worth and "entitlement" is seen as part of their birth-right. And that these children would grow up with those attributes more or less regardless of what school they went to.
(I say more or less because obviously they would probably get it knocked out of them at one of the failing inner-city schools full of knives, drugs and gangs so beloved of the Daily Mail).

And I think he reason these children are more noticable at private schools is that there isn't the stratum of troubles, disadvantaged children whose backgrounds make it very difficult to have high self esteem and self-confidence.

So, nature or nurture?

I actually, think it depends on the child's personality Litchick.

I was very much like Michelle Obama. I thought it was cool to do well at school and always did my homework, I read encyclopaedias in my own time and my second home was the public library. When I was 8yo, I taught my self the 6,7, 8,9, and 12 times-table in one weekend because I wanted to impress the teacher!!! I always wanted to be better than my peers!!!!

If a child is a follower and easily influenced, then they will be more affected by their peers and parents have to work very hard to keep them on the right path if they are surrounded by negative influences.

Yes, I always wanted to do very well at school - but it was very much the cluture that brains, particularly in girls, were not cool. I had to keep my aspirations very quiet.
It must be lovely for kids being taught in schools where everone is likeminded. Not in that, everyone is bright, bright, bright, but that everyone does their absolute level best. I must admit to a pang of jealousy for own children's schooling. But as, you rightly pointed out, looking back doesn't pay. Onwards and upwards.

zzmum, on your comment that parents of children who go to private school choose this option because they will mix with children like them ..

well, for myself in some ways yes and in some ways absolutely not.

There is an irony in that the private school my dcs go to is actually more ethnically mixed than any other local school and, in terms of ethnicity, more repesetnative of the local community as a whole.

In terms of wanting my children to be educated with children who value education similarly then yes, I do but I see nothing particularly wrong about this as a motivating factor (since it is an option available to me). And, no, I'm not implying that all state schools are filled with children who don't value education.

My decisions are very personal and very particular to my area. DP and I have intimate knowledge of local schools since we teach in them and therefore our decision is very informed.

But unlike some private school parents I won't tell you that my children are special and need a special sort of education. I think the sort of education that is availalbe to them should be available to everyone. Sadly it isn't. And since the system and my circumstances allow me to access a private school education for my children then I will.

Can I join in too?

I think that manners, confidence and how 'sorted' you are (to refer back to the OP) depends mostly on your parents.

I also think that lots depends on the immediate crowd you get in with at school - e.g. if you are at a bad state school (as I was) then you are OK if you make friends with other kids who are generally well adjusted and want to do well. I guess if you go to a top private school but get in with the kids who drop out/do hard drugs etc then there's a good chance you won't succeed.

But I do think that private school generally gives you two things - a sense of entitlement (I really felt this when I was at Oxbridge - private school kids just knew they were going to be top bankers, lawyers etc and I think that helped to get them there) and better grades/knowledge (and by knowledge I mean knowledge, not intelligence - I just think that private school kids are crammed with more of it). BUt I also hope that good employers allow for these differences. When I was in charge of grad recruitment at my previous employer I was definitely more impressed by a state school kid with 3 A's at Alevel than by a private school kid with the same grades

I am not anti private education at all. If I could afford this then DS would have it - just for the excellent facilities and smaller class sizes it would be worth it. Not only that but having DS taught by teachers being able to concentrate on their job instead of trying to multi-task beyond all belief would be nice too.

What I do object to is the assumption that just because a school is private that the children will somehow be of a better quality/have better manners/be more civilized etc.

I got very angry after reading ST's post yesterday that there could be someone out there who thinks that you can only get these great qualities in a private school. That's rubbish - I don't know where ST worked in the state sector but to rubbish the whole system based upon a few schools (possibly in one or two areas) is appalling and narrow minded.

My son attends a lovely state school and has good manners - so do his friends. I don't doubt that there are children among his peer group who do not have good manners. But as far as I am concerned that's largely down to parents who haven't taught them or known how to teach them.

Whatever my DS chooses to do in the future it won't be held back by poor manners or a lack of civilization/socialization.

Chilli,
ST stupid post just illustrated her lack of socialisation.

Thank goodness she no longers teaches in state schoools to infect impressionable minds with her poison.

My son's in a private school but some of the best-mannered children we know go to state schools.

chilli, I really don't think that view is widespread.

I certainly recognize there are some fantastic state schools and fantastic kids and teachers even in what appear to be on paper the worst state schools.

Neither do I assume that a private school is necessarily going to be great just because it's private. We rejected one straight away because it was stuck in the 50s.

However, there are some things that you are much more likely to get in private schools. Most obviously the fact that parents value education enough to pay for it or access the bursaries.

Then it is much more likely that class sizes will be smaller, academic and behavioural expectations will be higher etc etc.

At least in most well-established private schools.

Not based on assumptions or prejudices but on facts i.e. exam results, stats on class sizes etc.

And I am not saying that results and behaviour etc are better because the teaching and schools themselves are necessarily better but because the children have already been self selected and then quite probably selected by ability etc

Of course if state schools were able to choose only those children then their results would go through the roof.

I went to university with a lot of people from private school and while many were lovely, many were not. Teaching someone a narrow set of manners like shaking hands does not prepare you to know how to relate and respond to people from a wide range of backgrounds in a way that makes the other person feel comfortable around you. To me, those are real manners. SOME people of university age who have been to private school have had a very narrow life experience and so can't interact successfully with people from a wide range of backgrounds. The same is probably true of people from the other end of the spectrum.

Obviously as the years go by and people have a wider range of experiences, they learn those skills. I think this immaturity in social skills is the main reason that I do not want my DCs in private schools. In many other ways there are huge benefits to an independent school education and I am very envious of those.

But better manners? ROFL