Probably controversial, private/state-so don't read if you're not interested in a debate!

[seeker]

On another forum I occasionally visit it appears to be accepted that private school children have better manners, more self confidence, present themselves better and are generally more sorted than state school children - including those at state selective schools.

I have been thoroughly told off for suggesting IF this is true it might in large part be due to the fact that private school children are drawn from the more privileged end of society where a sense of self-worth and "entitlement" is seen as part of their birth-right. And that these children would grow up with those attributes more or less regardless of what school they went to.
(I say more or less because obviously they would probably get it knocked out of them at one of the failing inner-city schools full of knives, drugs and gangs so beloved of the Daily Mail).

And I think he reason these children are more noticable at private schools is that there isn't the stratum of troubles, disadvantaged children whose backgrounds make it very difficult to have high self esteem and self-confidence.

So, nature or nurture?

Fivecandles - surely seekers post is replete with personal prejudice. I see the advantages of private schools but IME in some of the private schools and in some of the pupils there are real issues associated with manners; arrogance; ability to learn independently. Dr Rae's book is not tittle tattle but a daily diary of events at his elite school over many years. Somewhat dated I agree but not unrelated to what I see in some independent schools locally.

If you want to get cross try this: some of the kids in private schools are alot less privileged than their state school counterparts: dad works until 9pm; mum is more yummy than chummy; additional tutor helps them with their homework....

chilliNchocolate - well said. There is clearly a "two worlds" thing going on here. The private educated mums think the state schools are populated with ignorant low-lives.

Of course there are pupils in private schools who are arrogant, bad mannered blah di blah. God, I'd like to see the school that could eradicate these qualities!!

But what are you saying? That you're MORE likely to get these qualities in a private than a state school?? I just see this as prejudice, inverted snobbery and incredibly unhelpful.

Likewise your comment about children with tutors and working parents. Are you trying to say that this children who go to state school DON'T have working parents or tutors?

I'm struggling to work out what the hell your point is tbh.

ZM, do you find those chips on your shoulders terribly weighty?

'The private educated mums think the state schools are populated with ignorant low-lives.'

Where do they? Who said this.

If you'd read the posts you'd realize that quite a lot of mums of kids at private school are teachers in the state sector. Like me for one.

So no I certainly don't think that.

Get over the assumptions and generaltistions for god's sake.

Fivecandles - I haven't geeralised. Some schools.. some pupils... I am responding to seekers initial post - don't post I think she said if you don't like a debate.

What comes over to me is that the MNs seem to perfer private schools not because of academic standards but because the kids there are like mine.

Truth is despite or perhaps becuse of all the advantages that private schools have in terms of social selction, freedom on curriculum etc you still think down on state schools; indoor and outdoor shoes are not the preserve of private schools.

I think this has got a bit side-tracked into 'manners'.

i wouldn't discount the 'veneer' too easily actually, the 'veneer' is about not being frightened to ask, of feeling entitled (which has become a dirty word, but perhaps shouldn't be?) to question and ask, about thinking you are good enough, having confidence to give something a go, to risk failure, to not be frightened of asking for what you want.

These aren't actually bad qualities for life you know.

Malcolm Gladwell had a really interesting chapter on this in The Outliers. I can't remember exactly what it said - but was along the lines of the middle-class boy talking to his doctor and explaining what was wrong and how it had happened and engaging the doctor with his problem. The less advantaged child, saw the doctor as a threat, had a troubled relationship with authority, lacked the confidence to explain his problem, or to believe that the authority figure would be interested. The middle-class child got a good diagnosis, the disadvantaged child did not.

Was v. interesting way to look at things. Not sure how much to do with education, but lots to do with background.

You can't generalise. I know people who have used both for their DCs at some point or they have one at a private school and one in a state school. I expect a lot of people are like me and have looked into private education but not done anything-but might later. It isn't helpful to set up two camps.

ZM not sure I understand your comment. Do you mean the mums of privately educated dcs or mums who themselves were privately educated?

Can't comment if your post referred to the latter as I am state school educated. If the former then I am sorry you know people who hold these views. My ds is at private school and the majority of my friends have their dcs at state school. I don't think their dcs are at schools 'populated with ignorant low-lives'.

Ime the children in my ds's year and his state school friends are identical in every respect and by that I mean manners, behaviour, parental support and income etc. More of the mums in ds's year work compared to his state school friends but that is the only difference I can think of.

I think the veneer thinking was more related to children who appeared to be very polished and confident, but when taken out of the highly supportive private school setting really struggled. Those hot housed and then left to their own devices at university perhaps in particular, because certainly some do struggle when the supports are not there, whereas if you have fought to succeed then your confidence may be much more deeply rooted.

I suspect however that a huge amount depends on the individual child, their family and their school. It's always a bit of a pity that in these conversations all private schools and all state schools get amalgamated into one big category, which then makes the debate somewhat meaningless. There are state schools I would avoid like the plague and those I would be totally delighted if my children joined, and likewise with private schools. My reasons for those judgements might not be the same as another parent though. As it is I am happy to live somewhere that essentially doesn't have private schools (except for one Catholic school).

it seems to differ from school to school and person to person

one friend of ours had been to one of the best known public schools in the country; he was a lovely man in many ways, but there is no doubt that his confident (read: patronising) manner did grate with people; he just unconsciously assumed that his views would carry because that's how he'd been brought up to think (have known him to lecture me on my field of academic expertise, the culture of my country- which he had never visited etc); I don't know that this confidence helped him all that much in life; also had a lot of difficulties in his relations with the opposite sex- don't know if that was due to never having socialised with women until he was grown up

otoh dh went to Latymer's; can't see that the educational opportunities have made that much of an impact; it's only since he met me that he's really started reading books; but he does have nice manners and is not over-confident or arrogant

Message withdrawn

got interrupted:

otoh (again) several of my colleagues have been privately educated and have lovely manners and clearly a very very good education

have also had some very nice (and well educated) grammar school products as students

then again, have had very bright (and well mannered) ex-state school students

but of course I seldom get to go back and have a peek at the parents so the whole nature/nurture thing doesn't really get an answer

as a university teacher, I meet two types of student where educational experience is clearly holding them back:

the state educated students with a chip on their shoulder: you're not going to concentrate on your studies if you are constantly worrying about the privileged background of the other students

the grammar school or privately educated students who assume that they are going to be miles ahead of everybody else: they invariably come down with a bump and often never recover

I know one type of student who is invariably successful: the one who does not live in the past and does not worry about other people but gets on with doing as much work as possible in the present

'plus we did a one week Easter revision course, plus there are targeted provisions to support borderline A/A* pupils etc. In the private sector you pay for this sort of thing in addition to the tuition fees. '

Erm, no you don't, not necessarily. I know children in my son's prep school year who are having extra French tuition, for free, from the French teacher.

"surely seekers post is replete with personal prejudice. '

"Seeker - if your "argument" is an example of the superiority of privileged elite in UK then God help us."

zanzibarmum - not sure which "side" of the debate you think I'm on - and which personal prejudices you think I was displaying. Could you enlighten me - then I can respond!

I think to a certain extent you must be right, Seeker.
The children at my DC's indie school have the best of everything in life. A wonderful school ( most definitely not a hothouse ), wonderful homes, loving interested parents, homes filled with books and interesting things. Their privilege is breath taking, really. I'm sure they'd all do fine and dandy without the school, really, but I suppose it backs it up. So a double whammy of privilege.
The contrast with a local primary school, where I volunteer is terribly stark. The children are from disadvantaged backgrounds and a lot of the parents couldn't give a monkey. Actually, it's quite depressing.

I often wonder how the life chances of some of the kids at the local school would improve if they went to the indie school. Would the school itself be enough? Without parental backing would it be pointless?
Is a great school any point if the parents don't give a shit?

I often wonder this, too. Our indie demands a lot of rigorous homework and tests are set regularly. If you didn't have someone at home making sure this was done, would you be enough of a self-starter to motivate yourself? Supposing you didn't have a quiet room to learn for tests? Or internet/library membership?

(BTW, not implying that state school pupils aren't expected to do the above, too.)

I wonder if you'd embrace education if you were brought up in a home envrionment where it wasn't valued.
I come from a sink estate myself, and went to a dire comp...but my parents, though not educated past 14 themselves, valued education. They read themselves and read to me. They took me to ( free) museums. They discussed politics.
One of the reasons I volunterr at my local school is that the parents won't. They don't even turn up to parents evening ffs. Ahhhhh.

I come from a poor immigrant background with parents who did not attend school beyond 10yo. They embraced education and despite attending a low performing comprehensive, I went on to gain a degree and PhD. I also have manners, confidence and drive to always improve myself.

I have met many people from private school. Some have manners, some don't. Similarly state schools.

I honestly believe a child's achievement in terms of social and academic development is largely influenced by the home environment, particularly the quality of the parenting.

I send my 5yo DTS to state primary. They started school last September and already they can write in sentences without having to look words up! At parent's evening, the teachers were praising their exemplery behaviour, their politeness and consideration for others. |The teachers praised DH and I and said that it was obvious that we did a lot with the boys whereas a lot of parents do things for their children without actually being involved with them. It is because of the time we spend with them, and we speak as well as treat them respectfully. No matter your background, if you do not treat a child respectfully and enjoying being with them, then they will probably not have highly developed manners or self-confidence.

Out of interest, I use to do private tuition and most of my pupils came from private or grammar schools.

Spokette - I'm sure much of that is true.
Unfortunately for the kids at the school where I volunteer, the parents are not motivated by education and don't seem to care less what their kids get up to at school.
It is so terribly unfair for them. Sometimes I feel angry for them, but mostly just sad.

Cory

"I know one type of student who is invariably successful: the one who does not live in the past and does not worry about other people but gets on with doing as much work as possible in the present"

That is one of the most honest statements that I have ever read. It reminds me of Stevie Wonder's "Past-time paradise".

First verse:

They've been spending most their lives
Living in a pastime paradise
They've been spending most their lives
Living in a pastime paradise
They've been wasting most their lives
Glorifying days long gone behind
They've been wasting most their days
In remembrance of ignorance oldest praise
Tell me who of them will come to be
How many of them are you and me

Litchick, very true. I see it at the school my DTS attend.

And I suppose thinking about it further, that age of the children very much is a factor.
Little children, will invariably take their cue from their parents, but what about teens?
Aren't they far more likely to take their cue from their peers? Mine are still little so can't speak from experience.
So I wonder if private education has more impact upon a person at secondary level than primary.
Where's Boffinmum when you need her? She always has research links on things like this.