Probably controversial, private/state-so don't read if you're not interested in a debate!

[seeker]

On another forum I occasionally visit it appears to be accepted that private school children have better manners, more self confidence, present themselves better and are generally more sorted than state school children - including those at state selective schools.

I have been thoroughly told off for suggesting IF this is true it might in large part be due to the fact that private school children are drawn from the more privileged end of society where a sense of self-worth and "entitlement" is seen as part of their birth-right. And that these children would grow up with those attributes more or less regardless of what school they went to.
(I say more or less because obviously they would probably get it knocked out of them at one of the failing inner-city schools full of knives, drugs and gangs so beloved of the Daily Mail).

And I think he reason these children are more noticable at private schools is that there isn't the stratum of troubles, disadvantaged children whose backgrounds make it very difficult to have high self esteem and self-confidence.

So, nature or nurture?

It's not at all uncommon piscesmoon, for private school pupils to have extra private tuition on top of the private!!

I think it's also partly because these days many privates are way behind state in terms of what they offer as the norm in many state schools, in terms of extra booster classes or help. eg the state school where I work offers regular after school sessions on particular subjects, plus we did a one week Easter revision course, plus there are targeted provisions to support borderline A/A* pupils etc. In the private sector you pay for this sort of thing in addition to the tuition fees.

Gosh, violet, I should be charging for my GCSE clinics. I had no idea.

I have no idea what you're addressing me about!

I agree that it is generally the families the children are from rather than the school, but despite this I would consider private for secondary education because along with small class sizes I think it is worth paying for (yeah, I sound like a snob, but I m not!).

DS spent a few days in a private school when he was in year one. He was doing the same work that he did at his state school. They had slightly better outdoor facilities, but that does not really make much difference.

Also both my children went to a private kindergarten which we actually left early with dd because it became a nightmare of bullying, and serious lapses in child safety.

Just responding to your usual private school hating post

I like violet hill's posts.

ST -Oh here we go....

I was responding to the point made by another poster about how 'extra' provision in private schools operates. And actually I am not 'private school hating'. I have used both sectors for my children. My overall conclusion is that an excellent state school is probably on balance your best option these days.

But since you clearly want to be aggressive and start a personal attack - I've seen a few teachers in my dd's private school, who have retreated from state because they're actually not that great. They tend to be the ones who then protest loudly about the evils of state schools.So maybe you couldn't cut the mustard eh!!

Why thank you mrsR

Celia - I agree, I'm forever dropping things as I dash from office to classroom and I don't think I've ever had a student not pick anything up for me! I don't think it would occur to them to just ignore it or not help!

Message withdrawn

I agree, Bloss. It is amazing when you get a new batch in Y7 about who is happy to do shakey-shakey.

I actually find quite disturbing that childen who have joined from the state system are so reluctant to have any form of physical contact.

Obviously, as a trained teacher, I am respectful of personal space requirements, but I as still a little shocked that normal teenagers are irked by normal social etiquette.

I am private school educated (secondary only) as are most of my family, and none of them have ever said that they had to shake their teachers hands! What a peculiar idea. dh who went to a traditional minor public school (scholarship kid from working class background) laughed at the idea and said that of course that wouldn't happen because it suggests equality between teacher and child which would go completely against the ethos of most private schools where privilege is deeply ingrained. Although he has a fairly negative view on these things actually I agree. Private schools tend to be strong on enforced privilege based on position (ie prefects being given permission to bully etc). I've also never had the situation where meals were anything other than a free for all at any school I've been to, state or private.

Clearly some schools do better on manners and presentation than others, and on the whole I think private schools should do better because of the background of the children (in theory at least) should mean they are less likely to have chaotic home lives. I would certainly expect a child from a privileged background to have more self confidence, speak better etc, and to value education more.

However when I moved at sixth form from a private (and fairly inexpensive as these things go) girls days school to a boys public school I was appalled at the poor behaviour of the boys there, and the fact that they were allowed to get away with it. There were teachers who just didn't seem to have learned crowd control (and boy they needed it) and lessons were frequently disrupted. We also had a few children who had clearly been dumped there by warring (or uncaring) parents who were pretty much unexpellable because the school knew they didn't really have a home to send them to. Posh/rich people can behave incredibly badly too.

Nooka - the shaking hands is a pre-prep thing. The teacher shakes the childs hand and says good afternoon at the end of the day. I think its lovely!

I think that it all goes to prove,nooka, that you can't make blanket statements about schools in either sector.

Personally ST I found your post about state schools offensive. You chose private schooling so your children could be with other children who are "civilized/socialized". Nice!

I am assuming that makes my son in a state school neither of those things then.

Or have I just generalized in the way you did?

To be honest if you are really so narrow minded I am personally delighted that my son is not likely to ever be taught by you - God only knows what kind of values you instill in the children who have the misfortune to end up in your private and "civilized" school. "Thank goodness you're here and not with the plebs/thugs/(insert whatever you use) up the road" springs to mind.

By the way I have never had a child NOT reply if I say "Good morning" when taking DS to school.

STOP GENERALIZING.

No you can't Pisces.

From personal experience - my brother went to private school - he developed a nice drinking problem never got to university and is gay (don't flame me, it's just ironic given whatever my parents were thinking at the time). He lives in a flat and has an insecure job.

They never sent me to private school and I ended up being sent to every state school we poled up at (forces brat). I have more qualifications that him, made it to university, have a nice house, horse and a career. I have been lucky enough to "marry" well (we were never married) which has helped with the nice house!

Many of the schools were rough as shite. My fellow classmates taught me valuable lessons in how not to appear clever or look like you're trying too hard. My parents taught me the rest.

It's helped because it was ex's money that contributed to the nice house

I do tend to agree that it's largely down to the background, and it always amuses me when the staunch defenders of private schools here on MN refuse to admit that, i think it's because it would just rile them too much to think that they're spending all that money for something they could get elsewhere for free oh, sorry, forgot, you are not allowed to talk about the cost of private schools, it's taboo!

and let's not forget that some of the most disadvantaged children (at least here in central london) come from refugee and immigrant backgrounds where education and good manners are valued above all else, resulting in extremely well behaved pupils (albeit often with lower academic achievement due a whole host of other problems).

Sorry that you have found my views offensive, CnC.

My views of state schools are solely coloured by having worked in them. YMMV.

Seeker - if your "argument" is an example of the superiority of privileged elite in UK then God help us.

As a state school educated person one of the big things that puts me off private schools is the bad manners; arrogance; lack of a moral and ethical framework that seems to be pervade some of the children in some of these schools.

You obviously haven't read Dr Rae memoirs of his time at Westminster School - huge numbers of boys from broken homes; no relationships with their fathers and poor relationships with their mothers - well the poor kids has been sent to boarding school!

Then you have the autistically bright children at private schools who are socially inadequate and unable to work with other students.

In state schools they do not tolerate drugs whereas some private schools do seem to accept that drugs are part of their students way of life.

Private selective schools have some things going for them: high academic standards and freedom to teach but the downside is that they are often populated by snotty nosed, rude, and arrogant parents, if not pupils

Ridiculous Mystic. I was one of the first contributors to this thread and said it's blindingly obvious that the children who go to private school are generally hugely privileged before they even get there (either through their parents' income or their aspiration). Of course, this means that they would be highly likely to do well whatever school they went to.

That is not anywhere near the same as suggesting that they could get what they get at their private school at the local state school for free.

As with many others on MN and in real life it is not that I was worried that my kids would come out of a state school with a lack of qualifications or a lack of good manners. I do think they would lack other things though like happiness which for me was number one and self-esteem.

And anybody who makes blanket statements about either private or state schools based entirely on what they personally have experienced rather than evidence is a bit stupid.

And I think you have to be very careful about assuming that people have access to decent state schools. My kids don't unless I decide to adopt a faith which I'm not prepared to do. Therefore we pay. And as a teacher in the state sector as is dp I know exactly what we would and wouldn't be getting if we didn't.

I can only talk about the schools I know and where I live the children at the state and private schools are well mannered, presentable and confident. I haven't seen a difference, at least not at primary school age. Doing the birthday party rounds gives a good idea of behaviour particularly when children have to sit at the table for the party meal. We've been to parties where majority of children are from private school and others where state school children are in the majority. No difference at all. The one common thing between both state and private is having parents who take an interest in their children's education, behaviour and manners.

It may be simply where I live but some of the wealthiest people I know send their children to state schools. Usually SAHM who can do the school run whilst dh is 'something in the City'. The dual income parents often choose the local private schools because of the more extensive wraparound care they offer compared to the state option.

What's the point. Just read Zanzibar's post. These threads are just an excuse for people to air their personal prejudices and pass on tittle tattle on both sides.

Of course I agree with the OP but (a) manners are not exclusive to private schools and (b) self-assurance can have a lot to do with a moneyed background

Around my neck of the woods, the prep school children have a much more scrubbed and poncey look. No doubt about it. Something about having to go to a school regulation uniform, including a blazer and a panama hat. Insistence on grooming to a high level - two sets of shoes - one for indoor and one for outdoor blah blah. So there is a glossiness but also a bit of Margot-Leadbetteresque starchiness which is quite funny IMO