Parents to blame for problems in UK schools

[Amey]

Any opinions on this article in the Observer. Mumsnet's Justine Roberts gets a name check and makes some sensible comments.

Personally, I think it tough to expect kids to be fully socialised and ready to learn at 4 years old!!

Fortunately, I'm not a teacher, but have witnessed some bad behaviour by parents towards the referees and players in junior football games. I'm shocked that parents can behave so badly in front of children in sport, so that the official bodies are having to take action.

So many reasons!

Bad aprenting is obviously one factor (wasn't it always?), bad teaching by under motivated teachers another- several colleagues of mine from Uni have gone into teaching purely to pay off the student debt before doing what they actually want to do; teacher training colleges were actively promoting that idea. A rise in SEN (latest figure I heard of ASD's- 1 in 60. Last fully corroborated was 1 in 80-something. Why on easrt are we not panicking?) with under interestested and under financed LEA SEN departments, collapse of the sepcial school system, massive over commitment to admin and under to discipline forced on teachers, a lack of ultimate sanctions........

As a Mum of a child with SEN related behavioural issues it's galringly obvious that it's a mosaic of issues.

(ultimate sanction does not mean caning in my post btw, when my son hurts smoene the school is leaned upon not to suspend even though I am onsidewith the school; thus ds1 knows that he can do pretty much as he likesat school and at worst get rewarded (by being removed from the stressful playground))

'you will naturally regard what your DC does as 'normal' if you have nothing to compare it to. '

That's so true; I am wel;l versed in SEN (I am Peachy btw), I have two asd children and have worked in a related field. LAst week I was gently told by the SENCO that my NT ds2 may be ADHD / Dyspraxia ? and a few other minor disorders.

I had no idea. Because in my home, what'snormal? He was, he was our benchmark. Without that basic stand point how do you know?

Peachy -- so agree with that. Our ds2 was similarly our benchmark because he was so different from ASD son 1.

School are apparently 'worried -- very worried' about ds2, who has real difficulty fitting in and understanding what's expected of him at school. Here we go again...

I do think that if you decide to send your child to school then you do have a responsibility to teach them how to wipe their bums, do up their coats, have good table manners etc.

It sets them up for life and eases them into school as smoothly as possible. Many children of four or so ( not including SN children obviuosly) are perfectly capable of doing these things and actually thrive on independence.

Of course willful disrespect/ bad behaviour is the parents fault- attitude to life in general is pretty much in place before the children even get to school.

"attitude to life in general is pretty much in place before the children even get to school."

I agree with that. Attitude later (secondary level?) can be influenced by a lot of other things, though, including experiences within school and how much support a child will get from teachers and other staff.

But if the parents are to blame for the children's behaviour, then their parents are to be blamed before them and so on. So why focus so much on the blame issue at all and why not address the causes of the legacy of poor behaviour management that goes back centuries and is heavily associated with zeitgeist?

And if we take a look at zeitgesit then we are taking a look at social and political policy and thus Government is massively responsible.

DS's teacher said it was a relief to come to our school and be able to teach the curriculum; in her last school teachers had to teach the children the ?PCSE? (Something, Something, Social, Emotional?) before they could teach anything else.

But here, she said, all the parents have already done that so we can get on with what we are supposed to be doing.

An example she gave was saying how well DS1 (a drama queen IMO) had coped with getting hurt in the playground. At her last school, she said, there would have been a massive over-reaction due to attention seeking. I was .

But if PSHE is what's required then that's what's required. For some children, time spent on PSHE is more valuable than that spent on the times table!

I think all children would benefit to some extent from more value and emphasis being placed on PSHE (revamped of course ) until such time as parenting across the board is addressed successfully in our society.

It's no real use trying to impart academic knowledge when emotionally and socially children are too poorly equipped to make use of it consistently across society.

I'm thinking of a boy I know aged 9 who now rarely chooses to attend school preferring to spenfd his days in the park drinking and smoking and stealing and so on...

When he does go in he is in our fab village school getting great academic tuition. Marvellous! But it's f*ck all use to him in his situation because he is already blighted by his familial circumstances, his total lack of self worth, the negative judgement by our community, the inadequate criminal justice system. His algebra skills just aren't going to change his life.

There are lots of different factors at work here. Parents who have themselves been told for most of their lives that they are worthless and unimportant and 'underclass' are not exactly going to feel cooperative towards state institutions. There have been a lot of mistakes made with the education system in the past 40 years or so which have made illiteracy and innumeracy much more common (if you can't read or write properly or do basic arithmetic, you are going to flounder for the rest of your life).
However, returning to 'Strict Discipline/Bring Back The Cane' won't work. DOn;t forget that there was a social revolution to get rid of all that crap because it ONLY WORKED FOR SOME PEOPLE. '50s vlues' were lovely if you were a child of the upper working classes upwards, or if you were a heterosexual white man of the middle classes and upwards. Because it was all aboutknowing your place and accepting that your status was to do with your skin colour/gender/family background. So being black or female or very poor meant Eat Shit and SMile. Hence the revolution.

Ah!

Thank you hobgoblin, PSHE.

What does it all stand for?

Of course it must be taught if needed. But I got the impression - at least you know I know next to nothing about it - that the emotional bit involved being able to cope with, say, being told off, or grazing their knees. The teacher mentioned that the children she had taught before could not handle their emotions, presumably because they had not been taught to by their parents.

I think the gov't is to blame too - and putting unrealistic expectations on schools.

Yes, everyone should have chances, and be included in society. The government wants everyone to achieve a certain level of education - great. But I do think there is something wrong when there are seemingly few consequences for very poor behaviour - all in the name of inclusiveness.

In a school I was in, children would get kicked out of lessons, and sent to the "Inclusive Room" - complete with big comfy chairs, lots of people to chat to whilst they listen to their iPods or whatever.

How is THAT any kind of deterrant?
Meanwhile other kids get SENT HOME for wearing the wrong shoes.

How messed up is that? So basically you can swear, and misbehave, but just make sure you look smart whilst doing it...

First it was PSE -Personal & Social Education

Then they added the H for Health (that's why the schools have a duty to police lunchboxes teach children about healthy eating)

Now it's actually PSHCE - they've added Citizenship to the mix, because it's apparently the schools responsibility to teach that as well....

I just know that as a teacher and a parent it has to somewhere down the line be my fault so I am going to pour myself an afternoon gin

I'll join you twinsetandpearls-it always ends up as the mother's fault!!

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the article and there is some parents have very poor parenting skills. You probably won't find them on mumsnet because people have to be interested to come on in the first place, they may be having problems but they want help to 'get it right'-very different from those who don't care or don't want to work in partnership with the schools.

By quornsilk on Mon 06-Apr-09 10:57:19
Teachers need more through training in SN. I believe it's one of the key factors.

I absolutely agree with your statement there quornsilk. I am a reception class TA and was recently given responsibility for 2 boys, both with varying degrees of SN. This would be fine if I had any kind of training on SN, but unfortunately I haven't. The people who "promoted" me to this post were told this in no uncertain terms, so it is not like it is a new thing to them.

This is my first TA post although I have worked as a nursery nurse for 8 years. Never before have I come across SN to the degree I am dealing with now, so I already feel out of my depth. Engaging these children in learning activities is at the heart of my responsibilities, but when I struggle with this, I get the come down from above, for not doing my job properly.

My argument is that it is difficult to work successfully with these children if a) we do not know specifically what their needs are (we have an idea, but are waiting for a professional diagnosis) and b) staff do not know how to work with them because of inexperience or a lack of training.

To hijack this thread on a personal level

This report freaked me out somewhat. DD1 is starting school in Sept, she'll be 4.6. With five months to go she's a sociable, happy child but she still regularly wets her pants (to my mil's disgust). She can eat with a fork if pushed but certainly not with a knife, can dress and undress herself but not if buttons and zips are involved.

I thought she was fairly normal for her age but now I'm not sure. Is she a feral child? Am I a useless parent and responsible for society's downfall? I'm gently coaxing her towards doing all these skills but as far as I can see it takes time for children to master them and too much chivvying is counterproductive. Or am I just a lazy softie? I'd be really interested in any opinions from teachers (or others)on how much they really expect reception children to do and how much they make allowances.

juju:

• 5 months is a long time - chances are accidents will be a thing of the past by September, and an occasional accident is really not the end of the world
• 'being able to eat at a table' is a lot more than just knife and fork skills - does the school do cooked meals or packed lunches?
• school uniform is (generally) relatively easy for exactly this reason - with a bit of practice she'll be fine.

(so no, what you describe does not, IMHO, make your DD feral - what would do would be if you had made and were making no attempt to coax her in the direction of these things)

A friend of mine teaches in a primary school with an intake that could be reasonably described as "challenging." I've heard some pretty scary stories from her - parents turning up late, pissed, high or not at all to collect their kids. Treating it a free child care service etc. One kid wasn't allowed books in the house because his dad was illiterate. So much for the notion that we all want our kids to do better than we did.

There is a problem with kids not turning up to school in any sort of fit condition to learn. However, I can't see that the answers lie in trying to go back to to 1957. Turning back time is always a tough call and I think perhaps we need to figure out how to go forwards rather than backwards.

Ah thanks Stealth

Because in all honesty, dd1's a bit lazy and I'm pretty sure peer pressure will kick in when she gets to school -she's at morning nursery and is a model child, apparently

So I was hoping school would give her a push in the right direction but don't want the teachers to think I'm Waynetta Slob and have been playing for four years on my XBox instead of teaching dd1 how to pull up her pants properly!

Yes, as Stealth said if you weren't trying she'd be fral; as it is she's just getting there (and probably will have by September, but if not school won't mind if they can see you are trying IME).

Lancelottie its hard having a second one in the system but ds2 flagged up a lot of ASD type stuff as well and I know (and SENCO agreed) that a lot of it is imitative from having two autistic brothers; the skill is separating it, don't suppose there's any young carer groups near you? If there are they can help a non spectrum child displaying ASD behaviours immensely. I guess it goes down to what you feel in your heart but I did miss ds3 for ages (and he's mroe severe) because I suppose I didnt want to see it.

SGB you're wquite right about a return to fifties style schooling; would be terrible. but there still ahs to be something, otherwise kids get to a palce where teacher says 'too much'- and find there's nothing there. DS1 is let off homework because he says no, given special treatment when he kicks off... I get that a lot of it is through indness etc but I do worry long term what message he receives and that it isn't consistent with our very firm boundaries.

Saying that, I do think we're 'rewarded' for being compliant supportive parents; other children like ds1 have been expelled sumamrily. I am pretty sure its the involvement and acceptance of ds1's issues that keep them working with him. Oh and the fact that he is, underneath it all, pretty gorgeous

AS someone said though you won't find the examples on MN. I did meet one in poundland (yes I know but I got some onion sets for £1)
(judgemental hat) Conversation:

Mum: He's annoyed because he hasn't got any money and can't afford anything

(Peachy thinks: damn good parenting, budgeting skills, excellent)

friend: great, fair enough

Mum: Yes coz I told him he gets twenty fags a day and a pound for school, that's enough

(Peachy still trying to be nice thinks maybe he's 18 and doing last bit of A levels so legal if not my style)

Friend says: well yeah coz it's not even legal at 14 is it?

Mum: well no but he's damn lucky and if he doesn't watch it i'll give him twenty a week and he can buy his own fags and food.

(Peachy, visibly stunned, thinks OMFG and what shit is he eating at school for £1 a day even before we get to the whole cigarette issue)

Now, could this be the parents the article mentions, perhaps?

'Teachers need more through training in SN. I believe it's one of the key factors.

Yes-but even more importantly they need additional help in the classroom. However expert the teacher is she (or he)can't manage 30 children when some of them have special needs-they are not wonderwoman! Money needs to be spent on proper, trained, support.

peachy - why are you being the mighty boosh? It's most confusing...

Interestingly the worst behaved child in our school has a mum who is a consultant in child psychiatry - what do we make of that ?