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Education

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Parents to blame for problems in UK schools

299 replies

Amey · 05/04/2009 17:35

Any opinions on this article in the Observer. Mumsnet's Justine Roberts gets a name check and makes some sensible comments.

Personally, I think it tough to expect kids to be fully socialised and ready to learn at 4 years old!!

OP posts:
goblincandoa5k · 06/04/2009 09:48

I agree mostly with the article.

Being within the primary years, it seems to be generally the parents that sow problems in their children.

Although, lack of parenting skills/knowledge is also a huge problem when a child has problems, and the parent doesn't know where to turn.

But, there is also a surprising number that really do not seem to care what their child does at school - it is a place to dump their children - even when sick

sarah293 · 06/04/2009 10:02

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twinsetandpearls · 06/04/2009 10:03

I agree OrmIrian, I am lucky that the school I now teach in has very few behaviour problems but have served my time in very challenging schools. Have been assaulted a number of times from being pinned against a wall wit a staple gun held against my head to being thrown against a wall. Parenting is an issue, some parents just do not have a clue and have not grown beyond childhood them selves. Sometimes parents are at home pissed or high while their children run riot or are so busy working they let their little angels get away with anything.

I dont know it there is more polarisation in schools which makes this problem worse, am talking of the top of my head. I came from a very poor dysfunctional beackground but because there were no league tables or they were very new kids just went to the local school. I went to a very good school so was able to escape the deprivation trap. I have taught in schools where a shickingly high percentage of kids are on the child protection register, where a shockingly high number of children come from homes where nobody works. Seom schools are ghettos of low aspiration and poor behaviour. Anyone who knew anything about schools or cared wanted to send their child to a school that I taught in. This meant we got parents who didnt get a shit or thise who refused to support the school.

Having said that I have seen crap teachers who deliberatley seek to wind vulnerable kids up and it is no wonder they snap. Not saying it is right but sometimes you see why it happens.

twinsetandpearls · 06/04/2009 10:04

Juule please dont feel sorry for us even when working in the toughest of conditions I never hated the children I taught and thought I had the best job in the world. Once you start to hate students it is time to leave the profession

sarah293 · 06/04/2009 10:05

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twinsetandpearls · 06/04/2009 10:10

No I dont think it does either riven but when you are surrounded by people who were failed by the education system and who are more concerened about where the next loaf of bread , can of lager, wrap of heroin is coming from than if little Johnny has been rude to the teacher then it will equal low aspirations.

Another thing I notice in my leafy safe school is there are some kids who just cannot be arsed as they know they are not that bright but Daddy has a business they can go into.

According to my daughter we are the pooresr family she knows and as a teacher I care about education.

WhoTookMyMemoryStick · 06/04/2009 10:12

I agree Riven, our childhood sounds similar. I wonder where the line became blurred and if we can pin-point an agegroup or generation where the expectation changed.

Lizzylou · 06/04/2009 10:16

Completely agree with Expat.
Our blame culture and society as a whole have created offspring who aren't being taught to have respect for others or themselves.
My parents were hardly perfect and they divorced when I was young, but myself and my brother were left with no illusions as how to behave and that misbehaviour had consequences.

twinsetandpearls · 06/04/2009 10:16

I do think schools have to shoulder some of the blame, when wishy washy rules are enforced kids take the piss. My present school has children from difficult homes but because are rules are very black and white they generally behave very well, much better than at my previous school. However perhaps that is because the majority of my pupils come from working families who value education so the back up is there.

Lizzylou · 06/04/2009 10:24

I know of a young lad, who acted up at school, a lot. He was doing his GCSE's and was on report almost all the time (mainly for cheeking the Teachers) had to have his lessons outside the Headmasters office etc
His parents bought him a present everytime he came off report. His younger brother who was always good at school, caused no problem and studied, got nothing. How bonkers is that?
His Mother said that he "clashed" with a few of his teachers and that was why he was rude to them and misbehaved. It was never his fault.

IMO he was taught early on that he didn't need to comply, could cite a personality clash to get his own way and had no respect for people in authority.

Made me laugh when he was looking at going into either the Police force or the army

stealthsquiggle · 06/04/2009 10:26

I agree that any issue has more to do with attitudes to children, whereby children are allowed to 'rule' the family, than material wealth. Low income families can and do have high aspirations for their DC and strong family values. OTOH there are children (the minority) in DS's (private pre-prep) school whose parents just shrug and say 'what can I do?' when they behave appallingly outside school and, surprisingly enough these are the same children who have behaviour problems in school.

Expecting a 4yo (SN excepted) to be able to dress themselves reasonably well (in easy clothes), use the toilet and sit at a table to eat is not, IMHO, unreasonable.

KingRolo · 06/04/2009 10:50

There are some real horror stories on here but as a teacher (who loves her job) in a fairly run-of-the-mill comprehensive can I just reassure people that...

  • violent attacks against teachers and support staff are very rare and when they happen the child is virtually always permanently excluded and police involved.
  • the vast majority of parents want their children to do well, understand that we want that too, and are fully supportive of school.
  • the vast majority of children come to school to work and want to do their best.

And I really don't think things are getting worse - the media just sensationalise more!

quornsilk · 06/04/2009 10:50

Hooray for twinset - I agree.

GeraldineMumsnet · 06/04/2009 10:52

There's a fair bit of meejah interest in this story, so can I do quick straw poll on your reactions to Mary Bousted's quote that "parents must be helped and given confidence to take back control". What sort of support do you reckon might help parents who are struggling/reacting aggressively to any implied criticism of their child? Thanks

quornsilk · 06/04/2009 10:57

Teachers need more through training in SN. I believe it's one of the key factors.

stealthsquiggle · 06/04/2009 10:59

There will always be a minority of parents who will not respond to any suggestions/offers of help/sanctions at all.

However, as a general comment, two way communication is key. I know schools have a million different targets and pressures on them already, but I read a post in an (unrelated) thread where someone was talking about a school parents event where they were told what was expected of their DC in a given year group from both academic and social standpoints, and shown examples of 'average' 'above average' and 'below average' work in various areas. It struck me as a brilliant idea. I think this is a lot of the trouble - if you don't happen to have extended family/lots of friends with DC then the news that Little Johnnie is struggling with some aspect of school may well come as a shock, as you will naturally regard what your DC does as 'normal' if you have nothing to compare it to.

twinsetandpearls · 06/04/2009 11:01

I think it is a factor quornsilk but when I think of the 3 0r 4 times I have been assaulted and once threatened with rape only once has the child had special needs.

twinsetandpearls · 06/04/2009 11:02

I agree stealth, as a teacher I am often in the dark when it comes to my own child's homework so I cant imagine what none teachers must do.

Tortington · 06/04/2009 11:11

smaller class sizes, more teachers, more resources

in truth the state of the education system lies with the lack of investment.

its the govt fault

bullet123 · 06/04/2009 11:15

I have absolutely no problems with condemnation of violent and abusive behaviour. But to give the impression of claiming that if a child starts school at the age of four lacking certain skills then it must always be down to lazy or disinterested parenting is wrong. Since my lads were tiny babies I have read to them, sung to them, played with them, talked to them and taken out and about so they get to see and experience a wide variety of things. I make them say "please" and "thank you" where appropriate. I teach them about taking turns, no pushing, hitting etc. They do not have any tvs, consoles etc in their rooms and about the strongest thing they have watched is the 1960's Batman film with Adam West. They are gentle, usually well behaved and Ds1's teacher says she has no problems with his behaviour.
However, Ds1 has an autistic spectrum disorder, with significant understanding and communication difficulties. At the age of 4 he was still in nappies day and night. At the age of 5 he still wears nappies at night, still needs a lot of help and support and requires a calm and structured environment at school to help him learn. Ds2 is mostly non verbal at the age of 3.5 and may or may not be on the spectrum (assessment to follow). I work hard every day to help them learn and communicate well with other people so to read such offhand suggestions that infer it must all be down to parents who don't give a shit is rather irksome.

quornsilk · 06/04/2009 11:15

That's a good point about investment custardo. I don't know how much it costs to keep a young offender locked up but I imagine it's a fairly large sum of money. More focused investment in education and intervention might reduce the likelihood of young people with behavioural difficulties falling into crime.

Amey · 06/04/2009 11:17

Some interesting discussions and points made. I don't think its helpful to blame anyone group for the problems in our schools.

I think Lizzy and Expat have a good point. Schools are operating in a culture that often doesn't value education as it should.

But, as Twinset says people who have been let down by the education system may not have much aspirations for their own childen's education. And a well run school should be able to overcome the problems caused by low aspriations.

Imo if a teacher 'gives up' on a pupil because 'its all the parents fault' the child is 'unteachable' then its time for that teacher to consider a new career.

I agree with Effie's point that parents and teacher's need to work together. Though I believe that this is best achieved at the school level (its often what makes a 'good school').

OP posts:
Amey · 06/04/2009 11:22

quornsilk.
Did you read this related article. Some interesting points about SEN and also interesting stuff about homework.

OP posts:
edam · 06/04/2009 11:25

Twinset's right about well-off kids thinking they don't need to bother as they can just go into Daddy's business - two of my cousins have done exactly that. Bright lads but one didn't bother going to university and the other one dropped out. Having a millionaire father who offers you a life on the ski slopes can be quite demotivating, it seems! (No, I'm not jealous, have no desire to work as a ski instructor although the inheritance would be nice. )

hobbgoblin · 06/04/2009 11:29

GM, I think that education - for as long as formal education has been available - has been focused solely on providing an academic grounding with the occasional foray into practical life skills such as cookery and woodcraft . We may be about to see a significant shift in terms of equipping children through school with skills in matters such as financial management/household budgeting and care of self/offspring but it is tokenistic and the PSHE curriculum is overly broad (imo) and sometimes patchy. However this is beyond the point.

Parents themselves do not have the skills to raise their children well or even adequately in many cases. Education has never focused on equipping any of us with the personal skills needed to do the job of parent well. For many, such skills have been acquired through luck. This is why one meet a 'well educated' (in the sense of how we still judge and measure educational standards), academic man - let's say he is a lawyer or a banker with high earning power. It is likely that his education has played a major part in his 'success'. However, this same man could quite easily (ime, commonly) be utterly hopeless at playing with his children. So often I have seen lack of parental self esteem and confidence undermine everything else that is good in a family.

Lack of self esteem underpins domestic abuse, poor academic achievement, inability to recognise, set or operate within boundaries. It affects children and adults alike in the way it operates as a legacy of inadequacy.

So, now that we have learned from the post war era that caning and physical abuse further damages individuals and quashes brilliance and confidence, disallowing success and achievement we have left ourselves in a confused state of fear of boundaries, fear of consequence. One where accountability is a bad word. With this societal back drop, no matter how excellent the curriculum set by Government, teachers and schools have not a hope in hell of imparting much of that excellence to those children who have most suffered from this failure to address effectively the issue of self esteem.

We may have learned that encouragement, love and support for our children is crucial but we have interpreted this as a need to leave our children unfettered and alone in trying to establish perosnal boundaries and the ability to self regulate; partly because nobody gave us a new rulebook when they threw away the one on corporal punishment and children being seen and not heard and partly because our own confidence and esteem had been damaged by those parents and teachers of our childhoods where humilation was a technique and smacking was a method so that we are unable to recognise safe love and restriction and consequence setting. We do not know how to give criticism kindly, to offer thought out consequences of unacceptable behaviour so we leave children be in the name of love, letting them become obese, under educated and disrespectful of any sort of authority at all

And so the (lack of) self esteem legacy continues with the children who are now being loved; unguided and unboundaried wondering why nobody bothered about them enough to set those boundaries and enforce some set of rules.

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