Any agnostics/atheists send their child(ren) to a faith school? How do you handle the inevitable discrepencies between home/school beliefs?

[frenchtoast]

Like this: DS (4) at 4am this morning: "Mum, do you know why a robin's tummy is red? To remind us of Jesus' blood." Mum: "Ah, right, yes that's what some people believe. And other people believe different things. What do you think?"

DS goes to this school because it is a good school, we like their flexible attendance philosophy for reception, it's small, it's two minutes' walk away (and the only school within walking distance) and he knows almost all the children - so given that nothing's ideal, a pretty good option.

And because it's a Church-aided rather than full-on faith school, I didn't think it would be too full-on, Christianity-wise; I was told that many faiths would be learned about. But clearly one is taught as THE faith.

I want DS to know about all these beliefs and make up his own mind about what he believes: he doesn't have to believe the same as me or school. But I'm a bit uncomfortable about four-year-olds being taught that a robin's tummy is red to remind us of Jesus' blood.

Any reflections? TIA.

"Custado- in many areas- the only school is a C of E one. The tiny village school where our dc's go is C of E, - where's the choice in that?
Another local village school is a Community Primary School- and is run by evangelical born again Christians, ( I think the teachers all attend the same born again church- these are small communities) who pump their God stuff at the children at every turn. Sometimes the sensible church school is the lesser of the two.. I hesitate to say ...evils. "

nah i dont believe it - sure these situations exist, but considering the population of England i would suggest they are in a minority, and although i appreciate that in these situations there is genuinley no choice - and that there will always the exceptions to the rule, i do not believe that this is the norm.

the norm throughout the country i would suggest involves someform of choice, poor choice maybe - but choice. usually IME between crap nondom state and better religeous ( although this is not always the case) I hasten to add that i think that class sizes at faith schools are oversubscribed, people are getting their children baptised and attending church, even converting to ensure that their child gets the best education in their area, which involves faith...my argument is where there is choice majority of times) ..what did you expect?

kiddiz - I think there is often a big difference between how people express their displeasure on here and how they would in real life, especially in front of children. You have to make allowances for the fact that people usually start polite, but are only human and when they have the same old same old peddled at them...

custardo - It does always turn into this argument, I suppose because it is, for me, the germane one. People always ask variants on "how can I accommodate faith schools into my life choices?", which I know is pragmatic as they aren't going to disappear in my lifetime. I still think that shouldn't stop us asking why they are there at all, because if we don't then they wont be gone in our children's lifetime either.

yes truly UD i agree with you -ask the question - ask away. courage of ones conviction - is another mater

The main question of this thread would still be an issue even if there weren't faith schools in the UK.

Leaving aside the arguments on why faith schools get better results* , I think that a lot of active Christians go into primary school teaching (and secondary too), so there is quite a high percentage of Christian teachers, compared to the wider population of adults.

It's the opposite with University teaching, where there will be relatively few people with religious views.

So even in non faith schools the children are quite likely to have Christian teachers.

(*do we really have to go back and flag up all the recent research showing that faith schools consistently admit fewer children with SN, children from poor backgrounds, etc, and that this keeps happening on a national basis....)

custado- two of us- gooseyloosey and moi have just both explained that it is our situation- I don't really think it is that unusual-and it's bloody unfair too.

Unfortunately- the church schools are often the ones with the good ofsted reports too aren't they?

People should have the courage of their convictions - yes, problem is the perception of the school is being skewed by the faith thing.

Atheist parents who want a decent school don't choose the faith school because it's a faith school. And if the non-faith school is significantly worse, they shouldn't be forced to take that choice.

If a faith school performs better than others in the area, there is no way of knowing, until it is taken out of the equation, how much of this is down to the "faith" element, how much is down to the quality of the teaching, the leadership, the building, the uniforms, the parents' involvement... which would be there anyway.

Custardo, I think that a faith school as the only option is the norm in rural areas but agree that this is not likely to be the case in towns.

What bothers me, is that to answer UQD's question, I think that faith schools persist in rural areas because of apathy and the belief that they are benign and do no harm. I cannot endorse this view as for me, the very concept of religion (ie a dogmatically correct way of life) is harmful although of course I appreciate that most do not use their religious beliefs as an excuse to condemn the choices of others.

Well, of course, the other thing you could do is become parent governors and seek to influence what is taught in school that way. Get enough of you onto the board of governors and you could have some sway.

This is what we have done in the past in order to have some say on what was happening in the village school (nothing to do with religion).

If you can be 'arsed'.

Oh I intend to become a parent govenor or similar when DS starts school. And bitch-slapping the evangelicals out of the classroom (Metaphorically, I do hasten to add, I do not believe in actual violence against anyone, superstitious fuckwits included) is going to be a major priority .

I would like to be a governor but there's competition for places here, my BIL (atheist) is already one, meanwhile I'm on the preschool committee and DP does the cycle club and Dsis does the gardening club and BIL does preschool committee and Foundation stage working group and Eco schools club, and Dsis and I did Healthy Schools committee. I don't want our family to totally overrun the school.

Anyway, the school has lots of involved, non-religious parents already. But they tend to shrug and mutter and hope for the best on the religion issue, they mostly don't want to be militant about it, or make a big deal about it.

Sounds like you will be a real asset to the school board, solidgoldbrass. Not.

lol yes SGB what a party that would be with fuckwitted heathens and their narrow minds and the christians. party on dude.

Fennel, I think your posts on this thread are very interesting. This is obviously an issue that you have given a great deal of thought to and, in spite of the "evangelical" sorts around you, it sounds like you have got a very good balance - albeit with a considerable amount of work on your part. I suspect that your DCs will grow up to be well informed and make considered choices themselves.

Whenever these threads come up they always give me the heeby jeebies mainly because they always seem so intolerant and often quite deliberately offensive to anyone who may have faith in some form or even a contrary view. I know that that is often only because of particular individuals but it is quite pervasive and they always make me want to defend those with faith because the way some of the non-believers refer to them is so extraordinarly rude - and offensive to me.

I always wonder why the vitriol? Different people believe different things. Your children will always be exposed - in some way or another - to views that don't accord with your own (in religion among other things) and I don't understand why some of the parents on these threads appear to be so panicked about it.

I don't believe that people genuinely fear that their children will become some sort of religious nut because they are exposed to a bit of a singsong and prayer or two at school. Rather that this is an academic argument that some people just like to get their teeth into!

Well personally, when I verge on vitriol, it's because:

I know from the inside, and from the experiences of many adult friends, that the religion your are taught as a child can be damanging, certainly it can have a long-lasting effect. I wish I had been exposed more as a child to a range of views, and particularly including the reasoned, well-thought-out, atheist position. Instead of being taught that there is only one proper true belief-set.

I do think religion can be very damaging and divisive in many ways, in society and in the world, and I would vastly prefer children to have a broadly secular education (as they do in some countries), than be divided by religion at a young and impressionable age.

I get more vitriolic because people ARE trying to convert my children to Christianity, even though my message to the children is that they should think and reflect and wait til they are older to make these decisions. It annoys me. Not because I am scared of them choosing a religion, or of having other views I don't hold, but because I don't want them to be sucked in at a young and impressionable age.

I would say it's irritation rather than panic.

You are right, Fennel, that one's personal experiences will affect the view one takes on this.

My exposure to religion as a child was pretty warm and fuzzy and all-inclusive. There was no fire and brimstone or anything remotely like that. Even now the area I live in has a pretty strong Christian and Muslim community and there are loads of events that are organised by those communities and which are strongly supported by everyone in the area.

What I'm saying, I suppose, is that in my experience religion has been a very positive thing and even if I might not buy into it I am quite happy for DCs to be exposed to it. In fact I would prefer they were so that they develop an awareness of different views and opinions and hopefully an attitude of respect and tolerance whichever one they ultimately follow.

I must admit to having no fear of one of them being "sucked in at a young and impressionable age". I like to think that if I provide a home environment where debate, discussion and different opinions are encouraged that this will create balance. They may well go through religious phases (not to mention different sports, hobbies etc) as they "try out" different personas/views etc but, imo, this isn't a problem. I would certainly rather they were exposed to some spirituality than none.

Why would you be scared of them being sucked in? And why wouldn't you believe that, given that they are being provided with differing perspectives on the issue, your children (like you with your background) would have the confidence to find their own way and make their own decisions and not be "sucked in" as it were?

What about if you bitch-slap them? Surely then?!

I am repeatedly non-respectful of superstition and the superstitious because I think that an unreasoning deference to the 'faith' mindset is a really bad thing. Once you start saying that people's 'faiths' deserve respect just because people have them, then you are making it easy for dangerous nuts to peddle extremely toxic bullshit to children. While the majority of superstition pushed in schools is fairly fluffy and harmless (Great Pumpkin loves you! Let's sing a song! Etc), indulging the superstitious in terms of schooling can lead to a poor education (creationism in science) social divisiveness, and the encouragement of bigotry -(all female students must now wear floor-length skirts to as to avoid offending those whose imaginary friend hates women's legs, Gods Hate Poofs, etc).
My position is 'Believe whatever bullshit you like but don't expect anyone else to take it seriously'. And I do think that it is vitally important for non-faith schools to include the faith-free worldview if they are going to live up to the idea of being inclusive.

Message withdrawn

"Well, of course, the other thing you could do is become parent governors and seek to influence what is taught in school that way. Get enough of you onto the board of governors and you could have some sway."

Don't be silly. You only have 2 parent governors on a board, the rest of the governing board is taken up by teachers, the LEA, the vicar etc. Faith schools won't be abandoned by atheists becoming governors. (says the atheist governor of her DD's faith school. )

My position is 'Believe whatever bullshit you like but don't expect anyone else to take it seriously'.sgb

clearly its not respect for the other person.

it confounds me how a person can purport to have an inclusive mentality i am thinking racism, homophobia, sexism. But you would really say to a muslim -your Fairy stories are ridic?

ther is no place on mumsnet for the above - yet it seems perfectly ok to use inflamitory language when refering to People ( not schools or organisations) people who hold these views.

i would suggest that you think yourself pretty liberal and embracing of all colours creeds and sexuality - but somehow you can but aside your liberal mindedness to be rude to people about their religeon or faith.

it doesn't add up

It does add up Custy, because religion is totally different from those other issues you listed. Race, gender, and sexuality - things you're born with and can't help. Choosing to believe in invisible beings, nonsensical folklore explanations of creation, etc in the face of clear scientific evidence to the contrary - that is an individual's choice, and in terms of factual reality, it is a choice that deserves little respect. And having respect for it is actually hypocritical, because we are only actually supposed to have respect for the religions that happen to be major players or happen to have acceptable dogmas. If someone suddenly starts saying they believe in fairies, or hear voices in their head, or think they have cousins on Jupiter, or space aliens are going to fly past and we all need to kill ourselves to coincide with it - we don't respect them, we pack them off to mental hospital. Even though what they are saying is actually no different to any religious dogma (people kill themselves and others in the name of Islam, Christianity etc) but if it just happens to be seen as out of the loop, it's madness, not religion. The only answer that makes any sense is to exclude religious preaching from arenas where children are supposed to be being taught facts.

oh science has proved there is no god? when did that happen?

you are missing my point completely, which is a point about respect for others.