Any agnostics/atheists send their child(ren) to a faith school? How do you handle the inevitable discrepencies between home/school beliefs?

[frenchtoast]

Like this: DS (4) at 4am this morning: "Mum, do you know why a robin's tummy is red? To remind us of Jesus' blood." Mum: "Ah, right, yes that's what some people believe. And other people believe different things. What do you think?"

DS goes to this school because it is a good school, we like their flexible attendance philosophy for reception, it's small, it's two minutes' walk away (and the only school within walking distance) and he knows almost all the children - so given that nothing's ideal, a pretty good option.

And because it's a Church-aided rather than full-on faith school, I didn't think it would be too full-on, Christianity-wise; I was told that many faiths would be learned about. But clearly one is taught as THE faith.

I want DS to know about all these beliefs and make up his own mind about what he believes: he doesn't have to believe the same as me or school. But I'm a bit uncomfortable about four-year-olds being taught that a robin's tummy is red to remind us of Jesus' blood.

Any reflections? TIA.

Just a btw - I am Christian but have never heard of the robin thing!?
Wonder if it's one particular teacher, not a general 'school' belief?

I'm having the same problem - I asked around beforehand and was reassured it was more "Christian ethics" (which I'm OK with) rather than full-on indoctrination. But dd1 is going on and on and on about Jesus. It seems like there's more RE teaching than anything else! But given it did say CofE "on the tin" I don't think we can complain, really.

However, I am a bit wary of being to anti-religion because, although I might put it very carefully and try no to hurt anyone's feelings, I'm not sure that she would do the same, and I don't want her upsetting her teachers or the other children.

Do the other posters who just tell their children that it's a story get any problems that way?

Ds's nursery (within a CofE school) has them pray at the end of each session. Today he said afterwards 'mummy why don't we pray at home?'

Had to hold back with my reply. He doesn't understand at all what they are praying too and thinks they're just saying thank you.

Very re robins. I could cope with basic religious stuff but that's taking it all a bit far.

One of the reasons he won't be staying at the CofE school for reception is that we're atheists and I'd struggle to do all the god stuff and to support the school ethos of all that.

Well I tell my children (8 and 7) that I personally consider it all a load of bollocks and have arguments to prove it. I don't actually mind if they repeat that to anyone trying to teach them about Christianity.

But they also know that all their grandparents and various of their other relatives and neighbours and friends do believe very strongly in Christianity. I do keep insisting they should think about it but not be pressured into deciding what they believe til they are a lot older.

'I personally congsider it all a load of bollocks and have arguments to prove it. I don't actually mind if they repeat that to anyone trying to teach them about Christianity.'

Yup. Tolerance and respect are always good.

I'm not actually that tolerant or respectful of religion (spot the person who's been reading Dawkins recently).

Obviously I accept that many people have different beliefs, but I don't HAVE to accept that every view is equally valid and worthwhile and well thought out. I respect people who have thought deeply about their beliefs, who are prepared to question their own views and be critical of their behaviours. Some of those people have religious views, some don't.

I don't think we should have any tolerance and respect at all for schools telling children to believe religious dogma. Tolerance for other people and their religions, as long as they don't harm others, yes. Learning about what other people believe, and what religion is, yes. But I will have no more respect for people who tell DS god exists as if it's a fact, that I would if they told him the moon is made of cheese, or that people can levitate, or that fairies live down wells - ESPECIALLY if they are teachers and are supposed to be imparting factual knowledge. It's all the same from a logical POV - it falls into the category of folkloric belief for which there is no empirical evidence. And IMO it has no place at all in an educational institution.

Why the hell should it be OK to say god exists and robins' red breasts are there to remind us of Jesus's blood, if it's not OK for school to teach that fairies exist, or that magic is real for example? I just can't grasp why teachers are allowed to do this at all. What some people believe, with no evidence, does not fall into the category of knowledge, facts or learning.

But if you send your child to a religious school, you know the deal....surely?

Mine aren't at a religious school. They are at their local school, the only one near us. And very good in many ways. They still get taught about Christianity as the one true faith. But apparently a bit less strongly than they would at an officially religious school.

Late amendment to my post - should be to not too - was distracted.

I think "Ah, right, yes that's what some people believe. And other people believe different things. What do you think?" is a pretty reasonable way to handle it.

As it happens, that is also what I say to my daughter when she comes home with (what I would regard as) atheist twaddle.

It cuts both ways - once they are out in the big wide world, they meet peoples' beliefs and have to make their mind up.

But atheism, by definition, isn't twaddle. It's understanding reality via measurable, empirical evidence - it's about facts and reality, not beliefs. Scientific fact is a completely different kind of information from religious dogma - they cannot all be lumped together as "what people believe".

Different religions are what people believe, and they are not based on evidence. Facts and knowledge are what people observe, study, measure, test for and agree on. That's why you don't have dozens of different scientific movements around the world, all believing contrasting things about robins, none of which take the evidence into account. On the contrary any zoologist anywhere will have a similar understanding of robins to any other, because they gain their understanding from what they can observe.

How schools - and indeed anyone - can fail to make this distinction crystal clear is just beyond me.

And meeting different people's beliefs and making your mind up is fine by me. Being told religious dogma as fact, by a teacher, who is supposed to impart knowledge, is not the same thing as that at all.

Oh FFS I am going to have to deal with all this cock next year as well. I am in fact about to put in the primary school applications for DS tonight and have (naturally) only investigated non-faith schools and am hoping that given the wonderfully multi-cultural area we live in there won't be too much of a problem with one superstition being peddled as superior to the others.

But when necessary I am going to be reminding whatever school DS attends that the gods'n'fairies-free world view is a valid one that they can 'respect' just as much as they respect the other viewpoints.

I know this is slightly off thread but related to the idea that atheists somehow doesn't count, the best local state school is a catholic school which has, as the last of the selection categories (after all the member of the Catholic church variations):

Practicing members of another faith who can provide a signed letter confirming this (can't remember exact wording).

So basically if you are an atheist or agnostic you're not even considered.

Maybe I could claim atheism is a faith and get Richard Dawkins to sign some letter confirming I'm a true believer?

I know it's something debated on here ad infinitum but I think it's bloody outrageous (not that I'd particularly want ds to go there so he could be indoctrinated anyway but still...)

the trouble with people of faith respecting the faith of other people is that they all have faith in common, so can join together in the collective suspense of disbelief.

The trouble with the atheists is that they really spoil the party. I guess essentially, although I would be rather upset if either of my dds became religious, I fear for the disapprobation of teachers and children if they go around party pooping!

Poppycock: I know what you mean but I also think it's important for all DC to learn that not everyone agrees with them and they should be polite to the people who disagree.

I am also teaching my children to be reasonably polite to people who disagree. I don't mind them telling their teacher that "Mummy says it's a load of old twaddle!" I don't consider that to be particularly rude. The teacher then can, and probably will, say, "Well your Mummy and I disagree on this". And the children understand that adults they respect have different and opposing views on religion.

I could feel it's mildly offensive for my children to be told that their Mummy and Daddy are going to burn in hell because they don't believe in Jesus. I don't actually consider very tolerant the Christian belief that you have to accept Jesus as true or you go to hell and your whole life is worthless.

And I know not all Christians will say they believe this but it is mainstream Christian church doctrine, say in the CofE.

Compared to my children learning that their father and I will burn in hell for ever, I don't think that suggesting something is a load of old twaddle is particularly offensive. One makes my children think, the other causes them quite a bit of anxiety.

iDont think you are teaching children to be reasonably polite to people who disagree by saying "Mummy says it's a load of old twaddle!" I consider that to be rude. Especially from a child, who perhaps cannot put the comic inflectin that an adult could when talking in adult conversation. The teacher might, say, "Well your Mummy and I disagree on this". but i feel it is giving mixed messages to the child, for the life of me cannot understand why people sent thei children to god bothering schools, when thye diametrically oppose the central teaching of a faith school - it confounds me.

I could feel it's hugely offensive for children to be told that their Mummy and Daddy are going to burn in hell because they don't believe in Jesus. If my children were taught about hell i would be its not the kind of thing thats taught anymore in catholacism at least, i mean all the fire and brimstone stuff is simply not in vogue doncha know. would surprise me if the proddies did it - they are usually more liberal in all matters.

and if my children were taught that their family members would burn in the firey mists of hell, i would make an official complaint, tell the newpapers and makesure that the teacher who taught this in this manner was sacked.

I don't actually consider very tolerant the Christian belief that you have to accept Jesus as true or you go to hell and your whole life is worthless.

neither do i, i believe my god is a loving god, i don't blieve for one second that a good person leading a good life would go anywhere other than heaven. that person would have missed the presence of the holy spirit and jesus in their mortal life and once in his light knowing he was absent would be punishment enough. I dont care where its written either.

using "Compared to my children learning that their father and I will burn in hell for ever, I don't think that suggesting something is a load of old twaddle is particularly offensive. One makes my children think, the other causes them quite a bit of anxiety. " as a defense is poor. one set of rudeness compounded by another set of rudeness. doesn't make either of them right.

i am truly gobsmacked that children are being taught that their mummies and daddies are going to hell - please report this immediately

I don't believe that teachers are 'telling' four-year olds that the redbreasts have the red on them because it's Jesus's blood. Sorry.

Perhaps the teacher said that people used to/once believed this? Perhaps she said it was an old legend, in the same vein as Father Christmas having reindeer, etc?

Even in my Catholic primary, run by fierce nuns, 35 years ago, we NEVER were taught this.

I don't believe that anyone in a CofE mainstream primary or a Catholic primary has even said that non-believers burn in hell, either. I've worked in a CofE primary and my children went to one.

The next thing will be that someone's child came home telling their mother that a teacher had said that Jews/Muslims were stealing Christian children to use in sacrifices and should be driven out of town.

And sorry, meant to make it clear that I'm not disputing the OP's original claim re. robins; just saying that I don't think it's a general trait in faith schools.

Ours isn't a faith school, it's the local village school. With some Christian teachers. However if we lived in one of the other villages around here, the local village school would be a faith school. Not everyone has a choice of local schools.

My children are being taught a lot about Christianity from a variety of fronts. My parents are evangelical Christians who certainly do believe the stuff about hell and life being meaningless if you don't believe that Jesus is the son of God and still alive. They do teach this to my children. And it is still official CofE doctrine and the children are being taken to church now and then as part of the school timetable. We also have a neighbour who's always inviting the girls to church and sunday school and teaching them things about Christianity. And school has an after-school evangelical Christian club, my dc don't go at the moment but they have thought about it. It's not a faith school but there is quite a lot of Christianity being taught.

Before we had children at school I planned to be much more non-committal about religion, leaving it to the children to make up their minds in their own good time. But I feel that this doesn't actually work, given that my children are being taught/evangelised to on three separate fronts. They are being told these things, as facts. And as things which you have to believe or else bad things will happen. It's making me feel that I almost have to be more assertive about atheism, when I wouldn't have planned to be, due to the various and constant exposure to religious evangelism my children are experiencing.

Custardo "cannot understand why people send their children to god bothering schools, when they diametrically oppose the central teaching of a faith school".

Of course I understand what you're saying, custardo - it more than crossed my mind when we booked a place for DS - but faith is just one element of a school's ethos, with several others potentially being important to families.

I do not "do" God, religion, etc. So of course this doesn't marry up at all well with a CofE aided school. However, I am passionate about a later start to school and therefore critical to me was a flexible primary, which would retain DS's place even with him attending part-time for a year. There are no other schools in our area that I am aware of, that offer this flexibility.

Secondly, DS has experienced a turbulent home life in the past year or two and, in the interests of keeping his life as secure and on as even a keel as possible, he has gone to the very-close-by CofE aided primary where many of his friends are going, where he knows several staff, which is small and friendly, and which he has walked past almost daily for the past few years. He also knows I'm really nearby. All important, I think, given what he's gone through.

I cringed my way through DS's school's harvest festival, with the school's bumbling vicar's mumblings and a repeated, grating little song about how God alone will listen and understand - I told DS later that day that I didn't believe that, and that he could talk to me or other family members and be listened to and understood. I don't like this dimension of his schooling at all. BUT the relative security that the overall experience is providing to DS at the moment, couldn't be matched - I believe - by another school. It's a compromise.

So yes, God may be in the equation, which I'd rather weren't the case, but the aspects of the school which do align with us and our needs at this time, outweigh this. This is why some non-believing parents might send their kids to a faith school.

Excellent post, Custardo - I agree

The problem many ratonal parents face is having no choice about sending their DC to a faith school, because the only school in the area is run by some or other bunch of crap-peddlers and home-ed is not an option (come on, home ed is only an option for the comfortably off who are well-educated themselves).
I am lucky enough to have 4 non-faith schools to choose from, but find it mildly irritating that all of them seem keen to stress their faith-friendliness in their brochures. I find it really quite worrying that this concept of 'faith-as-a-given-or-good-thing' is so prevalent when superstition is the cause of so much cruelty and destruction.