Any agnostics/atheists send their child(ren) to a faith school? How do you handle the inevitable discrepencies between home/school beliefs?

[frenchtoast]

Like this: DS (4) at 4am this morning: "Mum, do you know why a robin's tummy is red? To remind us of Jesus' blood." Mum: "Ah, right, yes that's what some people believe. And other people believe different things. What do you think?"

DS goes to this school because it is a good school, we like their flexible attendance philosophy for reception, it's small, it's two minutes' walk away (and the only school within walking distance) and he knows almost all the children - so given that nothing's ideal, a pretty good option.

And because it's a Church-aided rather than full-on faith school, I didn't think it would be too full-on, Christianity-wise; I was told that many faiths would be learned about. But clearly one is taught as THE faith.

I want DS to know about all these beliefs and make up his own mind about what he believes: he doesn't have to believe the same as me or school. But I'm a bit uncomfortable about four-year-olds being taught that a robin's tummy is red to remind us of Jesus' blood.

Any reflections? TIA.

Ditto Fennel WRT whether or not a faith school is your catchment school depending on which village you're in. It's the same where we are.

abraid, it's encouraging that you reckon this kind of teaching doesn't go on in most faith schools. DS has said nowt about hell and heaven yet, though did ask how Jesus died.

DS said that the visiting vicar, who's there once or twice a week, said the comment about robins. He's also the one who plugs the God-alone-will-listen-and-understand line, so I'm not really surprised.

We've been online, learning about robins having red breasts to attract a mate.

fennel, i understand what you are saying rgarding your frustration being surrounded by christianity.

however it is your parents teaching your chilren this - not the school.

if school were teaching fire and brimstone stuff, i would have to find some complaints system and use it.

i am fully aware theat the oficial line is that non believers go to hell. but i do not think that this ould be taught in school.

my school had nuns teaching - and i was never taught that. i simply dont believe that in SCHOOL this is taught.

i concede that where there is no opther option - such as a village, then - well becuase there is no other option you have to send your kids there - and becuase your *have to, you have the right to complain.

however, i think it must be very confusing for people in positions of authority to tell your children one thing and then come home to mum and dad - centre of their unierse telling them that wht they learned today in school was a load of crap - but just for that lesson - its not crap for the other lessons.

it doesn't add up.

i am sorry for your troubles french toast, but i maintain unless there is no other option, you should send your kids to a non faith school if you dont have faith.

I send my child god bothering schools, when I diametrically oppose the central teaching of a faith school, because it is the nearest infant school and I can't be arsed to walk to the other slightly further away primary school which calls itself "All Faiths" School. I kind of think if you're going to go in for teaching kids fairy tales, you might as well have the courage of your convictions and just choose the one myth, rather than all of them. I somehow doubt it's all faiths anyway, I bet they don't have paganism or worship of ancient Greek gods, but it seems a very ambitious school name to me.

I deal with the contradictions by saying "mmmm. yes dear. that's nice"

I figure she'll learn the science at secondary school. I was brought up a catholic and I don't believe the robin stuff, though i was taught it at primary.

DD goes to CofE school btw, not catholic. Vicar is v. nice

The school probably isn't pushing the less tolerant side of religion, but my children are not stupid. They hear about Christian beliefs from various sources, school being an important one, and they think about these issues. Part of what they learn is the evangelical message which includes the belief that it's very important to believe in the CHristian message and that other religions, or non religion, are not equally good and valid.

This approach to Christianity isn't that unusual, my parents are part of the CofE, there are many evangelicals there, and I think the friendly curate Jeremy who goes into school, and our friendly neighbour who invites the girls to sunday school and church services, are similar.

I think it's disingenious to pretend that all Christianity is just light and fluffy and loving and being nice to people and being appreciated for being a good person. It's not. You can do all of that and be a humanist or an atheist. the people who are evangelising my children (my parents, the local community members, the school teachers and people visiting school and running clubs there) don't just believe that, or they wouldn't put all this effort into trying to get the children interested in Christianity.

I agree custardo - in an ideal world. But as other posters have said, even a bog-standard, non-Church assisted primary, will be plugging Christianity to a greater or lesser extent. Fennel's "non-faith" school sounds more hardcore than DS's CofE aided primary, FFS!

So I could send DS to the nearest "non-faith" option in town, about three miles away, out of principle. And he would still be taught relatively heavily on the Christianity. And he'd know no one, and the school's huge, and we'd have to drive every day. The alternative is sending him to the faith school down the road with all the pluses I have described. It's a no-brainer, really.

Opting out of a faith bias altogether doesn't appear to be an option in the state sector. At least not round here. So if a biasedly Christian curriculum is unavoidable, it may as well happen in a familiar setting on one's doorstep.

And despite being non-believers, we don't tell DS that the religious stuff he is taught at school is "a load of crap". That would be to teach lack of respect. But we do say, hmm, that's interesting. That's what so-and-so believes. Mummy believes this, and [friend] believes something else. What do you think? Get a bit of discussion going. Yes, I can see that it could be confusing. But I think kids may as well know from an early age that not everyone in authority (or anyone not, for that matter) agrees - and it encourages them to formulate their own ideas in time, and to know that they have the freedom to do that.

I agree with you fennel, its not all light and fluffy.
You can do all of that and be a humanist or an atheist or christian.
the people who are evangelising to your children sound like maniacs that i wouldn't be ha[[y letting my children be around tbh.

Fennel, am I right in thinking you're atheist/humanist in your views? I'd find it hard to stomach if DS were being subjected to the level of evangelising your kids are experiencing, from school, your parents and neighbour. Are they handling the discrepencies between home and this barrage of teachings fairly well?

frenchtoast, it seems like you are handling it in a very sensible manner with discussions etc, but i doubt whether i would have the time or inclination in your shoes to have these discussions and i doubt whether most other parents do.

littlejinglebellas much kudos for 'can't be arsed' i suspect thats the main reason most times.

My children would have the tension between adults they respect having opposing and contradictory views anyway, even if we didn't send them to school. Their grandparents teach them the opposite to what DP and I believe. Dp's family are also rather keen churchgoers - they are Methodists, so officially very liberal and tolerant. But actually their views aren't so very different from my parents' evangelical anglican views. They still believe that not adhering to Christian beliefs is a problem.

So my children would have to learn that anyway, whatever school they went to, or even if they were home educated. They do find it confusing. But it also makes them think. We have lots of discussion about religion and theology and philosophy of life. They notice things and ask questions, and we talk. So actually, when I did tell my children the other day, in response to something about Christianity at school, "well, you know I think that's a load of old bollocks", that was in the context of many talks we've had over the last few years about exactly what DP and I believe and why we believe that. And in the context of me repeatedly telling the children they HAVE to think and make their own minds up, when they are older. I specify when they are older because I think small children are really focused on pleasing the adults in their lives, and this dominates what they say or think they believe. I don't think primary age children are old enough to know enough about the world to decide on their beliefs.

We're regular church goers, and my 6 year old son dismisses god with a panache that Richard Dawkins would be proud of. Don't see it as a problem.

"Why choose a god-bothering school if you are an atheist?" is something I often hear, and a valid point, or would be 1) if there were genuine choice of school, 2) if that choice were meaningful, 3) if the schools in question were equal in all other respects and 4) if we make the assumption that parents should have that decision imposed upon them in the first place at all.

Given that I don't believe in 1-4 above, it's an invalid point for me.

It's like saying "why send your children to a Marxist school if you aren't a Marxist?" A good question, but it doesn't address the actual question one should be asking, namely "why would and should a Marxist state school exist in your catchment at all?"

at custardo reckoning most other parents not having time or inclination to have these discussions. Really? Maybe I'm naive, but I'd hope many parents would talk about different people's beliefs with their kids. Actually, when I think about how many of my friends have had their kids baptised, I suppose they are really plugging One Way. Hmm.

Interesting post, Fennel. Your kids are certainly going to have all the information they need to decide upon their own religious leanings (or otherwise) eventually! Good point about little ones aiming to please the big people. Generally, we don't discuss this stuff much at all, but when we do, I'll be sure to emphasise that DS can decide what he thinks when he's older. For now, he just needs help accepting that their are different views, without having to do anything about/with them.

seriously on a day to day basis i dont think they would. and its on a day to day basis that your child in a faith school will be taught all manner of things about this man nailed to a cross - how gross is that - and other stories, and jesus said this and jeus said that. that would mean a discussion everyday - and i dont think that parent s hav the time or inclination to do that - and i do think htat children will get conlficting messages from those people who are figures of authority in their lives.

after working all day = get home at 6 make tea, do homework, tidy up - i barely have enough time to wipe my own arse - never mind having a 'discussion' with a 5 year old

We do have lots of time for such discussions. It's one of the things I enjoy most about parenting this age group, discussing the world.

I have a philosophy degree, I'm am academic psychologist, I argue about views and beliefs and opinions for a living. I like nothing better than a bit of theological or philosophical or scientific debate while walking to school.

Frenchtoast, you're right I am an atheist, but I started off as a Christian, a long time ago now. I spent quite long enough in churches and evangelical Christianity to be pretty well-informed about the way churches and Christian organisations work. If I seem to rant it's because I know it very well from the inside, and rejected it after a lot of thought.

i knew it would turn into this argument- it always does UD.

should there be faith schools at all - no.

i agree - no faith schools. no argument from me there.

should there be valid meaningful choice - yes.

Do people send their kids to the local faith school becuase it often times has better results/ cant be arsed to go to another school - yes.

choice is limited. but its not non existant in most places, and i would argue that fennels village case is not the norm.

i have had choice between crappy catholic and crappy other state - chose crappy catholic school ( sink estate) becuase of my faith - other than that both schools were complete wanking waste of space and there was no choice other than - shit v's shit.

I had to fight tooth and nail to get the twins into catholic primary - great fantastic one - when we moved, letter from priest and phonecall and everything. i fought for their place in that school - i believed in its ethos.

a MN friend of mine on the otherhand believes as i do that religeon has no place in schools, she carried her conviction of her belief - whichis more than i, or perhaps you UD, or frenchtoast - as a practising catholic she sends her children to non- denominational state. i think this is very admirable.

my argument is valid. if you dont believe - dont send them and complain about god bothering tendancies. there is another alternative most times.

why dont those who have such strong conviction - follow it through? if you are sending your child to a faith school becuse the results are better - why are the results better - its not cos jesus is doing miricles it is?

its becuas oof parental support and involvement - perhaps if you gave thoe qualities to the wankier school, if you all did, then you would have a better choice, for your childrens children.

I am one of those who lives in a village where the only state school is a CofE school. The only state primaries in nearby villages are also CofE and we would have to go many, many miles to find one which is non-denominational and we would frankly stand no chance of getting in.

I am also an atheist as is dh and I find the indoctrination of my children by the school abhorrent. They are not taught that there are many different beliefs and here are the essential points of each. This would be fine. They are taught that there is one true God and one way to him, of course other people believe other things and we must learn about them and be polite, but they are wrong. This is not acceptable.

The dcs know that mummy and daddy do not believe in God and they know why. However, our views are not seen as acceptable at the school and we are met with the attitide "it is a religious school, what did you expect"?

What I expected was, that as the only state primary zoned for my area, it would be more tolerant and less strident in its religious views.

I could rant all day, but you get the idea. However, what amazes me is that within the community, mine seems to be a lone voice for change and almost everyone else seems to think that this is fine.

My dcs have been/are being educated in a Catholic school. Ds2 spent 13 years in a catholic school and was never told that a non christian life was worthless and that non believers would burn in hell.
I am still very saddened/shocked how disrespectful some people are of others life style choices. Some of the terminology used on threads like this to describe people who believe in something others choose not to is so rude.
"......bunch of crap-peddlers"
"I personally consider it all a load of bollocks and have arguments to prove it. I don't actually mind if they repeat that to anyone trying to teach them about Christianity.".....I would be mortified if my 7 or 8 year old told anyone what they were saying was "bollocks". I would hope I had taught my children to be more polite than that and choose a more intelligent way to disagree than swearing at them. I can't believe that you would be happy for an 8 yr old to come up to you and say they thought what you were saying was "bollocks".
"fucking loons"
" crap they were trying to fill his head "
"Oh FFS I am going to have to deal with all this cock next year as well".
It is perfectly acceptable to not share someone else's beliefs and not to want your children to be told something is factual when you don't share that opinion but I do think a more polite way of airing your disagreement would be better.

snowleopard- on Mon 01-Dec-08 11:32:57
couldn't have put it beter myself- agree totally.
Fennel - My dd1 did Hosanna Rock- (with evengelical actions) 8 years ago. it was excrutiating.
Custado- in many areas- the only school is a C of E one. The tiny village school where our dc's go is C of E, - where's the choice in that?
Another local village school is a Community Primary School- and is run by evangelical born again Christians, ( I think the teachers all attend the same born again church- these are small communities) who pump their God stuff at the children at every turn. Sometimes the sensible church school is the lesser of the two.. I hesitate to say ...evils.

Gooseyloosey, in our village, most of the parents I know about are either atheists or agnostics, and they do mutter about the school having religious events. There's only one family in the village which does go to the local church.

I think my children's school experience isn't that unusual, but my children are more alert to it than many children, and I'm more alert to it than many parents, because my children pick up on different beliefs and notice and talk about it. Also I know that if a religious group goes to the effort to set up a club in school, or invite children to events outside school, there is very often an evangelical reason for doing so - often, the main purpose of these activities is to convert children to Christianity. Though they often don't advertise them in that way.

So the non-religious school encourages members of the local community to form links with the school, and religious groups do so (among other groups). And the children get a strong Christian message, but it's not directly, officially, from the school.

I don't complain to the school because instead of complaining I feel able to counter the pro-Christian teaching at home. So, I'm prepared for my children to be exposed to religous propoganda, as long as I am discussing different views with them (such as, it's a load of old bollocks). I would prefer really for them not to be exposed to any of it, and then I wouldn't have to be so robust in my counter-arguments.

Gooseyloosey- we're are in the same position as you- i really sympathise. The head is a wise and comparitively cynical welshman, the second in command confided in me that she is an atheist.
The vicar comes and spouts the bible quite a lot- he is evangelical. We bite our lips continually.

I wonder what proportion of schools in the UK are in fact "faith schools"? Lots of families have no choice, as their local school/s may not match their faith or their lack of faith. I think for that reason faith should not be part of schooling.

This is from the C of E website (only for England):

How many Church of England schools are there?

• 25.3% of all state primary schools in England are Church of England schools - that's 4,470 schools.
• 5.8% of all state secondary schools in England are Church of England schools - 220 schools.
• 18.6% of all primary pupils and 5.8% of all secondary pupils attend these schools and these percentages in each case are growing.

Incidentally, my children are unlikely to use the word "bollocks" at school, they know that swearing in public and at school isn't acceptable. They can translate into more school-appropriate language.

Obviously that is only the C of E schools - there are lots of other types of faith school.