I am happy with my children's state education but every so often I find myself talking to a 'private education' parent and just feel totally stressed

[Twiglett]

that there is no way my children can have the same quality and range of education and range of experiences and access to extra-curricular activities

poo-bum willy-faced bollox

What makes you think that they are assuming that other people envy them?

OK, apart from Christiano Ronaldo because I think that he's thinking that too.

glad to hear that Noddy xx

The only people I find who discuss it most are the children and they have a very good debate in the back of my car. Mine tend to do a lot of eye rolling, while the others say things to my dc's that make my blood boil t. When I meet my friend to drop off her dc's I do not mention how pleased I am to the mother, that I took mine out of private education, because of her dc's attitude that we are worthless. Stressful, yes.

I didn't think you were making it up Sobernow, I was just intrigued because I've never come across that attitude in a private school context. I just put those people in the 'general knob' category.

I loathe people like that- people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. You must have gone to one of the 'exclusive' public schools. I went to a school where everyone's parents worked and there were no housekeepers and not a swimming pool in sight.

I went to private schools (initially because state wouldn't mainstream me, then I became an expat brat). Mr NC went to state schools, as have the kids of most of our friends.

On the whole, the state schools have had better facilities, more school trips and lots more outside people doing special events. Friends sons are even doing Latin at their London comp (top set for English; other sets get extra reading).
My private schools did have smaller class sizes, and more eccentric teachers (some excellent, some terrible). The day schools I went to for primary were rather snobbish, but my boarding school (secondary) was a lot more diverse.

The state schools local to me in south London are apparently pretty good for primary, so I'll save my money for any extra tutoring/holidays/medical treatment/college fees the kids might need, instead.

As with anything else, those people who feel the need to boast about their wealth/ education/ dcs or anything else are often the most insecure. Like combustible, I've never come across boasting/ assumption that they are the envy of everyone at my dcs' school.

Also, I agree there's an awful lot of stereotyping here. In any school you will meet parents who are obnoxious for one reason or another and that doesn't mean that all the parents are.

It's worth pointing out the diversity of private schools and fees. My dcs' school is in north of England where fees are smaller and mortgages are too. There are many parents who you wouldn't associate with private schools and probably wouldn't find it possible to afford private schools in London for example. Dp and I are teachers in state sector (lots of other MNetters like this like Martianbishop for example), I know a student whose parents pay the fees, I know a couple who work more than 1 job (including working in a nursery) to afford the fees, a driving instructor, an air hostess etc.

As for the OP, I think I understand this. I chose private education only because we live in a very deprived area where schools are dire. I didn't want to be hypocritical and opt for a faith school or move to a leafier suburb. With the dcs now having been going to the school for a few years I feel a little envious that I never had the kind of education that they have.

Like others have mentioned the school's facilities are no better than state schools and may be worse in some areas (the buildings are old and some are listed so difficult to adapt, school doesn't get extra money for ICT like state schools would so you don't see Interactive whiteboards in every classroom, there is a pool and sports halls but that's shared between all the schools- kindergarten, girls and boys prep and grammar schools). What the dcs get that you don't find to the same extent in most state schools (I speak from my experience as student and teacher) is small class sizes, individual attention, high, high expectations, very little disruptive behaviour, specialist tuition (so the dcs get specialist swimming teaching, music, ICT, PE from age 3), a real sense of community and continuity since the family of schools provides from 3-18 and teachers really get to know each child.

However, there are down sides. Huge pressure on children (having said this most thrive on this), nightly homework, a huge commitment expected from parents in terms of organisation and time devoted to homework, getting correct uniform and kit etc, a lot of competition and finding it very, very difficult to excel in any area because there are lots of kids who will go on to get 5 As at A Level/ compete for region and nation in sport etc etc.

If I'd hd the option of a non-faith, local school I would have chosen it. Now I know more about the advantages of private school I may still have chosen it but I feel that my dcs are very privileged.

1. I wouldn't dream of boasting. Most parents don't. None of us are any better than anyone else intrinsically.

1. "I don't mean to tar everyone with the same brush, but you can't deny that many private school parents believe they are buying a superior education and that we in state schools are on the outside looking enviously in. Even if they don't say it out loud. That really does infuriate me."

I don't follow this. Of course it's superior, the exam results, the children that emerge prove that and the fact 50% of parents would pay if they could. We wouldn't pay if it weren't superior. But I accept many state school parents believe their state school is better or they are content with it and they would not be envious. What I would rather people did who are jealouse was sit down with a piece of paper and say I can do anything, people build up businesses from nothing, I'm a woman who can succeed - now I'm going to write my business plan which will ensure I can buy the best education in the world for my children OR ignore all that and meditate or pray and accept you should be happy with what you have.

1. Someone said I had not answered a question. Put it here again and I will.

1. Disruption in class - don't understand the point. Surely no parent on where, state or private, wants their child unable to concentrate in class because there is a trouble maker in there or group of boys or girls who mean the others cannot study properly? Why is that point controversial? There was one boy in one of my children's classes who has calmed down now but for a time kept being moved around the class room because he disturbed other children and they felt to make it fair his disruption had to be shared out over the weeks.

Xenia on Sun 13-Jul-08 21:06:01
"I only mentioned it because the article as in the Sunday Times. I suspect in most private schools you get less disruption lessons as parents would not stand for it and most of us want out children educated in class rooms where their learning is not interrupted by other children or any kind or held back by children who can't keep up with the standard of work of the class etc."

For me, learning to get on with the children with Special Needs is not being held back- it's an important part of the learning process!

We won't be able to edit special needs people out of the community, so I want my children to feel confident around them- and have empathy. If they did not learn this, then I would indeed feel they were being held back from an important part of their education.

Message withdrawn

That writer seemed to find three problems with the group (a) a group of boys messing around - disruptive boys together in a class can really make learning hard, low level constant problems, cheek, swearing at the teacher, texting in class etc (b) the group of teenage girls whokept their backs to him and were giggling and gossiping and (c) one special needs child with a helper who shouted something out loudly. All three disrupted the class. I want my children in a class where they can work. Where children stand up when the teacher enters the room, where they call the teacher sir, where a child who spoils the learning of the others has to leave the class or school. One child can ruin a year's teaching in a class. All parents will have heard of this in both state and private systems but it's more prevalent in state schools.

There are plenty of children with special needs in academic private schools but not who disrupt the class. My point was about disruption. I couldn't care less if someone has no legs or whatever as long as everyone in that class is as bright as a button and bouncing ideas off each other all day long.

Ah..... but I DON'T BELIEVE private schools are superior, whether Xenia likes it or not, and I'M NOT JEALOUS either, so there!!! (also have CHOSEN to send children to state school on account of thinking I AM SUPERIOR and SAID SCHOOL IS SUPERIOR). Are you jealous of me???

The best thing private schools do is the sense of community, building of confidence and enforcement of discipline IMO.

I went to private secondary. My DCs don't. Yet. And 40% of the time I wish they did.....when they have non-competitive sports day, selective music lessons, crap/non-existent discipline, SATs, run-down buildings, lots of ticking boxes for government statistics, no encouragement of abilities beyond what is required to tick that box.

I totally understand the OPs feelings. And actually agree with Xenia too- I will be doing something about it. They will be going for secondary!

WHy would I want people to be jealous? I want people to be content with their choices as I said quite a often above - either be content or change things so you can get it. Jealousy is one of the most destructive emotions there is and to an extent this thread is really about jealousy not schools.

If I had the money for private (which I don't) I really don't know what I'd do... I went to private school aged 3 - 16 and was utterly miserable - I moved schools because I couldn't settle, but none were right. I don't believe it was the fault of the school or the other kids, I just didn't 'fit'. But it has really coloured my opinion of private schools, just as any bad experience can lead to prejudice.

Then for sixth form I went to a comprehensive and was so happy. The facilities were dreadful - I remember being rained on in an English lesson because the roof was leaking, there were no text books, and there were some dodgy kids, with equally dodgy parents (drug dealers, prostitutes etc.). But it made no difference to me or my friends there academically, and the friends I made at that school are the ones I'm still in touch with now. I have bumped into people from my old private schools occasionally but we don't have any more in common now than we did back then.

I suspect that our households lack of funds will make the whole thing a done deal anyway, which in a way will take all the stress out of it. I just want DS to be happy at school and not to have the years of misery I had. But amongst people I know quite a few of their kids have got their name down for private already and the way they talk about it makes me worry that perhaps I'd be shortchanging DS if we had the money by then. I'd hate him to be unhappy like I was though. [sighs, slightly baffled by it all]

Am reading through the whole of the thread and beginning to wonder if the negative experiences aren't getting a little too much of an airing.

It would be difficult for one of those visitors from another planet to read it through and not get the impression that disruption is more common than not in state schools (which I challenge anyone to prove!) or that snobbishness and insecurity is the norm in the independent sector (which again I have my doubts about).

You can see why these are the views that you find in the national press: a leftwing paper sent out to cover an expensive private school isn't go to quote the most well adjusted pupils they can find, and a conservative paper doing a feature on state schools aren't going to be looking for corteous and respectful students and well-organised lessons. The first duty of any newspaper is to sell itself and you do that by reassuring your readers that they have made the best possible choice. And of course by finding a juicy story. Pupils Having a Stimulating Time at School is barely enough to sell the local Village Chronicle.

Xenia on Mon 14-Jul-08 09:42:39

"There are plenty of children with special needs in academic private schools but not who disrupt the class. My point was about disruption. I couldn't care less if someone has no legs or whatever as long as everyone in that class is as bright as a button and bouncing ideas off each other all day long. "

Ok, so where does that leave ds's classmate who is a lovely girl, not disruptive, but with Downs Syndrome, so can hardly be described as bright in academic terms? IMO having her in the class is a wonderful learning experience for ds. But if we look at your post earlier on this thread, her presence does not appear acceptable either:

"most of us want out children educated in class rooms where their learning is not... held back by children who can't keep up with the standard of work of the class etc."

Here you are saying something different from the disruption/knives topos. Namely, that even non-disruptive children should be kept away if they are not as clever as your own children. Which clearly excludes anyone with a learning disability.

I am afraid there are a fair few of us who do not agree with you. People out in society are sometimes less clever, some of them do have learning disabilities. If you can learn to deal with it while still young you will be better prepared for life. This is what I want for my dc's. And mixing with people with learning disabilities has in no way lessened their appreciation of Shakesperian blank verse. Why should it?

I understand exactly why Twig started this thread. I could afford to send my children to private school and sometimes I just wonder why I don't.

The main reasons are this.

1. Our primary school is "good" not "outstanding" but it does a good job.
2. I do not want to overstretch myself financially. It would tear me apart to have to remove a child from a school they were happy at because of the cost. I do not lie in bed worrying about this. My dh is self employed so our circumstances could change.

My children do lots of activities outside of school, such as swimming, dancing, brownies. I do need to organise these myself, and I suppose at a private school they would be laid on.

I think it is natural to wonder if you have made the right choice. I am sure I would wonder too if I sent my children privately.

I think we all second guess ourselves from time to time. Is this the right decision? How would it have been if I'd done something different? Well, not all of us. Xenia has clearly never had a moment's doubt. Or if she has, she doesn't share them on MN. I too completely understand where Twiglett is coming from.

DC2 attends a state school, DC3 a private school.

I feel that the teachers at DC3's school genuinely love teaching & are interested in their pupils. Not so at DC2's school.

Cory, that's a really very fundamental issue about education. Most comprehensives stream so you never get the not so bright in the same class the super bright, do you? Thus doesn't that prove just about every school in the land agrees with me that you can't easily educate children properly with different ability levels however left wing you are?

I've no problems with down's children. My sister was one although she died as a baby and my father whose obituaries about his work with those children have been in the press in the last month was very devoted but that is a very different issue from whether mixed ability classes work. They don't on the whole. There are private schools for very very thick children by the way and they add huge value for those children, arguably better to pay for them than the brighter ones but it's more fun for children if everyone in their class is at the same level.

Have I had doubt? I wanted daughter 2 to get into daughter 1's school but she didn't (although arguably she ended up at a better one anyway which often has the best exam results in the country but it would have been more convenient had they been in the same school). I certainly had no doubts about spending the money on school fees and with our son there were none really until he was 13 as he got almost a free place at his father's school and thereafter a music scholarship which helped. I was always quite pleased with their schools although I've another 10 years of fees to pay before the twins leave by which time I may well have a grandchild being privately educated.

A very close friend has 2 DSs in a 10.5K a year each private prep. Her DSs are more or less the same age as mine so it's been an interesting comparison. TBF she's 3 hours drive away so we don't get a daily bulletin but the factors that convinced me that I'd prefer my state school life are:

-School TOTALLY dominates that family's life! If it's not my mate having to get up at 6 to sort everything then get the DSs to school by 8.30, it's the hanging around for upto an hour in the carpark after school whilst one does some (compulsory) club or other; or it's the hour and a half of prep the DSs HAVE to do, plus the half hour of music practice (compulsory music lessons on top of the fees)- OR it's her DH having to hold down a job he increasingly despises, away from home, night after night, never SEEING his sons to PAY for the whole fandango!

• The grounds of the school look FAB... BUT the boys aren't allowed to play on the acres of manicured lawns AND the actual classrooms are glorified nissan huts BEHIND the stately home facade.

-The facilities are OK but it's our state juniors that has the heated pool! And the thing is, she realises she's paying for acoustically balanced music practice rooms which her DSs aren't deemed good enough to play in, for sports halls providing opportunities which her DSs just aren't interested in availing themselves of and an auditorium that her DSs are never likely to stride the stage of as the leading parts of the school production go to PROFESSIONAL actors...!

-The blazer for a 7 year old costs 110 quid.

-And when push comes to shove, the proof being in the pudding, I really for the life of me can't see that her DSs are any different to mine! Perhaps the younger one is having his preciousness indulged more, but that's about it!

And finally, I actually think my friend is just a bit jealous of us as she was a little perturbed to discover that state schooled DSs learn French too! And we can afford holidays to European Center Parcs and Brittany each year - despite our NHS worker wages!

Sadly for the 2 DSs, I think the end is nigh. Daddy's bonus, in the financial sector is in severe jeopardy and the parents are genuinely worried that 4 years of being effectively spoon fed at Prep won't have toughened them up for a state secondary which seems the likely outcome.

But they won't be alone!

Xenia, sometimes I don't think you are for real.

Where are these schools for the "very very thick children"? I'm aware that there schools for children with learning disabilities but schools for thickos?

For someone who has had a very expensive education you sometimes come across as a little bit erm how shall I put it without offending, you sound a bit thick!