I am happy with my children's state education but every so often I find myself talking to a 'private education' parent and just feel totally stressed

[Twiglett]

that there is no way my children can have the same quality and range of education and range of experiences and access to extra-curricular activities

poo-bum willy-faced bollox

I am on a train surrounded by rather... stereotypical rather rough Scots, feels like I've entered a different world. Am enjoying it as an anthropoligical exercise. If those children were supplanted to a different kind of school I wonder how different they would be.

Yes, I do think some schools confer massive advantages. Our local state schools in terms of school day all I can say is they are out on the streets very very early and the private school children aren't but 94% of children go to state schools and most do fine. If mothers didn't choose careers which enable them to afford fees and don't want to change jobs to do work which pays well then that's fine as lohng as they are happy with the consequences.

Someone said above have girls lost ambition. I hope not. I hve 3 children at univesrity stage, 2 of them girls. They seem to be reasonably ambitious as are their friends although some of their friends have no idea what work they will do and others have picked work they love but is badly paid. If you can afford it good schools are a good way to spend that money in my view.

perhaps they would all be like robots, like some of the private educated kids i know.

driven to what? work in the city?

Why would they all be robots?
Honestly, imagine if I said all state school kids were lazy arses...how rude and silly would that be?

Xenia, re: "If mothers didn't choose careers which enable them to afford fees and don't want to change jobs to do work which pays well then that's fine as lohng as they are happy with the consequences."

With respect, I don't think life is quite as simple as mothers siimply choosing well paid or poorly paid work, as if life choices were like some great democratic Choice Buffet. Not everyone has the same choices as you have either earned on your own or been enabled to earn for yourself. Life doesn't leave everyone on the same set of starting blocks. Nor does everyone have the same aspirations as you!

Also reports like this imply that a quarter of parents sending children to private school are getting into extra debt and some into real difficulty to pay fees.

I wish our state schools were better but they will never really be excellent until the Establishment send their children to them in far greater numbers (as in some other European countries) as if that's ever going to happen!

Most people can't afford fees and will never be able to. There are a handful of jobs that make it easy to do so and some people will always scrimp and save and manage it on more normal (statistically speaking) salaries. But it will remain a minority way of schooling. If you live around people who school privately and you don't it's easy to feel pangs of envy. I think that's what the original post was all about.

It's true that the range of activites etc can be very good at independent schools but not necessariliy so. Some schools are offering small class sizes and a middle class cohort and not much more. Granted those things are worth having but those Cognita schools are a long way from, say St Pauls.

nkf has it right. What is supposed to make people content is to be around people who earn the same or a bit less. If instead you plump yourself down with friends or family or neighbours to whom you're the poor relation (at whatever strata of society) then you'll be discontented (or prompted to earn more to buy for your children the things they can).

There is some ability for some women to choose well paid careers and far too many clever women make stupid choices when they're younger and then are jealous in their 30s and 40s because they earn less than others. It's an issue when you give your daughters examples of careers, talk to them about career options etc. I have never said the children have to earn X but I do want them to know that career Y probably means they won't be able to afford to keep a horse and career X means they can. Young people often thing Mr Z has a good job because he has a company car or Miss H because she's bought a Mulberry handbag but don't have the information about the long term prospects in certain careers. As mothers giving them a good example of what women can achieve both to our own chidlren and to other women and girls we can ensure they go into whatever they choose fully cognisant of the financial consequences.

From this dicussion it would seem as if it is a choice between a great education in a fee paying school or a substandard one in a state school, when the truth is entirely different. In the top 50 schools (by A level results for 2008) 13 of those are state schools.

Furthermore IME the standard of teaching is not far superior in Ind schools, far from it. I visited 4 ind schools in Edinburgh before I then chose to place my twins at the local village school due to what I observed in the classrooms.

Yes the buildings and grounds were prettier, there was more sport and (chargeable) music, but the teaching did not seem to be vibrant or up to the minute. It seemed to consist of rows of children (aged 5) sitting at desks quietly writing and learning as if by rote.

The state primary (and yes it does have an interactive white board, 10 computers and 2 teaching assistants in the class of 24)on the other hand (when i looked in the other morning, was buzzing with excitement and industry. All the children were enaged at tasks of their own choosing.

They do not approve of 4-5 yr olds sitting at desks. And nor do I.

Furthermore I cant imagine that I will want to spend tens of thousands on a private education when research has shown (warwick University) 'the more parents pay in school fees, the less chance their children have of getting a good degree'

Same here Seeker.....

Well said. There are lots of excellent state schools.
My DSs have done/are doing extremely well. They also have opportunities to go to an outdoor activity centre (co owned by the school)and extra curricular trips to places like Russia and Iceland. They have music lessons, joined the drama group, played in school teams etc.
DCs regularly go onto Oxford and Cambridge.
Comprehensive doesn't mean sub standard!

I have a slightly different problem.
I have a friend who I really like 99% of the time but who simply can not let go of our different choices re education.
MY DD is at girls independent around the corner from me. Hers is at local infants roundthe corner from her.
Now our girls are at different schools I hoped that we could just chat about other thing but every time we meet she constantly asks questions about DDs school and then makes critical comments. I would never dream of commenting on her DDs school and tbh I am not really terribly interested as long as her child is happy.
But she cannot let it go and i am reaching the conclusion that we are 'done'.

Really can't understand why people have to get so wound up about what other people choose. Its such a shame because other than this issue we get on really well but she just won't let it drop.

Other's peoples choices are up to them. I might have chosen private education if I only had one DC but it hasn't been possible for 3DCs. My nephew goes to a very good independent school but it never causes any problems, we are both happy with our choices. It sounds as if your friend is jealous pagwatch.
People should be completely free to choose the sort of education they want. I only stand up for the state schools if people are running them down!

I know aht you mean PG - I'm going to a family party at the wekend and am going to get it in the neck the whole time.
All the old chesnuts will be roled out
-I knew someone from private school and they were so emotionally stunted
-It won't make them clever you know
-I couldn't stand to have my children in such a hothouse...
And on and on it will go. 'Tis very tiring and flippin' rude.

One of the mothers at school could easily send her children to private school but she chooses the local village school.
But i think that once they get to secondary they will be in private education as the only two secondaries around here are not that good .

It's envy and/or insecurity, pagwatch.

It depends on the school. My dcs' school took 23 in this year. My dcs' own classes have 27 and 26.

The local private school has 28 in the class. Makes me chuckle...

I can't be bothered to get upset. Can't afford private, but in any case I believe in my own children.

This month's Tatler guide to schools...
Stowe

39% A A* at GCSE and 63% A/B at A level

Compare that with the better schools: Habs girls 97.7 A/A GCSE and 96.1% A/B A level, NLCS 97.5%/98% and Merchant Taylor's 88.7% and 91.5% and that does show the difference between those school which are in effect comprehensive and those that was fairly academic.

Yes, it does. What it does not show is how any individual child would perform if placed at any of these schools. The school dd attends is more like the Stowe school (if that), but that doesn't mean that no children are performing as well as those at top schools. I shall still expect dd to work hard and do well. All it means is that she is also making friends who are less academically inclined. That doesn't mean she has to emulate them.

After 12 pages, have fogotten what the original OP was . But am interested - Xenia - what is your job? I am lucky enough to have a job that is stimulating and well paid enough to cover shcool fees painlessly, but I never could have predicted that this would be my 'career', as when I was at university many years ago this job DID NOT EXIST - and careers advisors were drearily pointing girls at teaching and the civil service neither of which appealed to me. If I had daughters I would very definitely try to encourage them to think about the practicalities of having children and how that fits with a career, but who knows what the world wll look like then? Ihave two boys, te elder at a prestigious public school, but wonder if he should be learning plumbing and electrical skill in his school hols fore the uncertain future that will be therirs when the oil runs out...

I spend a lot of time ensuring girls know that babies are important too and not to leave it too late.
My brother and sister and I all picked career specific degrees when we were about 14, started at 17 /18. No all children do that. I don't disclose what I do on line but it's reasonably well paid.

It was part of my thinking when I was 14 - picking what I might be interested in for the rest of my life and also what paid enough. I wanted to buy an island and I remember working out what working as a teacher might permit and various other jobs.

When oil runs out we have nuclear power and all kinds of things and there is loads of oil under Alaska. It will be fine and people can learn those skills. When we let out some flats my children's father learned plumbing and some electrical work from a book. it's not that difficult if you're quite clever.

I agree that much depends on the child. If the school is not very selective it may well suit a child who would never have much chance of AAA at A level and yet in a good private school will have so much value added, so much more than in most state schools.

But if the child is bright enough to get into one of those "better" academic schools it usually looks good on their CV etc. Daughter 2 before she went out to dinner was just looing through that Tatler schools guide, checking how other schools were described and said she was so pleased with the school she'd been at which I thought was lovely and we saw her prep school too although it's veyr hard to assess prep schools unless you state where children go on to after which the survey doesn't do. The number of children who get scholarships at 13+ to good schools is a good indicator.

Xenia

I live not too far from you I don't think given the schools you mention and whilst I don't agree with all of what you say I do see many of your points. I think that living in the part of london that we do we have a warped view of state education. The sheer number of private schools plus the phenomenal growth of faith schools has left the local state schools, with few exceptions, with the more "working class" and immigrant children lowering the academic levels. I say this without prejudice, just fact. My mother is a teacher in a Harrow primary school and has been for the last 20 years. When she joined there she had a diverse range of pupils but now there are no more than 20 native english speakers in the school, There are of course positives for the children in terms of learning and tolerating one another, however, the disadvantages are that the whole of the first year of school is spent getting the children speaking english, communication with many of the parents is nigh on impossible and the support from parents can be patchy. "middle class" parents have either moved their children to other schools in pinner or hatch end or northwood or gone private. I am not talking necessarily about white parents as there are many 2nd and 3rd generation indian and chinese families too.
Hence the move private.

Most jewish children have been taken out of the general state system too and Barnet and Harrow have very large jewish communities, I think that Barnet is 30% jewish. The state jewish primary schools, without exception, perform incredibly well both academically and pastorally and certainly, in my childs class, the majority of the parents were privately educated and I suspect that the majority are comfortably off and could afford fees. It's very common in our school to have one child at Habs or North London and the other/s still in the state system. At secondary level the jewish state schools such as JFS offer superb academic standards, I think it's the top non selective comprehensive in the country, and facilities to rival most of the private schools. Again this reflects the geography of the area in that some of these children. a generation ago would previously have been in the general state system.

The point being, that state education in Harrow and Barnet does not reflect a true comprehensive system or state system as the overriding number of faith schools, both jewish and church have creamed off the most able children leaving the state secondaries much weaker and the vast choice of private schools has added to this. The opening of the first hindu state school in stanmore will add to this.