I am happy with my children's state education but every so often I find myself talking to a 'private education' parent and just feel totally stressed

[Twiglett]

that there is no way my children can have the same quality and range of education and range of experiences and access to extra-curricular activities

poo-bum willy-faced bollox

"The 6% in private schools do tend to do better in life "

How is "better" actually quantified then Xenia? Purely financially? Happiness? (How would one measure that?) The fact that many of them have inherited wealth which makes a differenence as well as how you did in school. 2 contemporaries of mine who went to private school have done well because mummy and daddy bank roll them every step of the way. Would they count in your 6%?

I am rather pissed off that Xenia's predictable posts have turned this thread into something it wasn't .. it was light-hearted, interesting, empathetic and humorous and now it's just your typical private education pro / anti rant .. but such is oft the way

Coming back to Xenia on a point I made earlier, my husband is not about to 'sacrifice' his children. They go to an excellent state primary.

I think the suggestion that we benefit the poor by taking our child out of the state system is, quite frankly, insulting. We might do, but on such a micro level that it's not worth thinking about. It's the macro issue that is the problem - the fact that we have an education system that perpetuates divisions based on ability to pay. That is just plain wrong.

I do find your assumptions that it is only because you went to private school that you do what you do quite extraordinary. I know loads of successful state educated people who earn loads of money, and loads of private school educated people who don't. A lot of it is about what you value in life.

Oh, sorry, Twiglett, I've joined in too.

Can we make it more light-hearted again? Think of how much less sartorially challenged your children are, without silly hats and long scratchy socks that are impossible to put on.

also Xenia how did the 3 day week affect the earnings of a GP in the 70s? Yes there were blackouts and shortages but unless you were on strike how did it affect him? But then you are the mistress of the ludicrous generalistation.

Sorry for thread change twiglett I try to ignore her and 80% of the time I succeed.

Have never felt private schoole envy. All the ones I know go there have fathers and sometimes nothers they see so little I feel sorry for them. And I know so many teachers who have worked at local private schools to know the teaching is often very poor. Also my state school teacher friend does extra tuition for girls in a top private school and I love the irony.

We did have a system which gave children who were academically gifted a great education regardless of parental income. Unfortunately, although the grammar schools were wonderful, the secondary moderns were pants and didn't really give children a chance. So most of the country is now free of state grammar schools.

What we have now is a state system where it's more about the ability to pay than ever. If you have the cash you can move to a nice area, which tends to mean better schools. If you have the extra 10% of the house price handy, you can buy a house in the catchment area of a great school in a nice area.

"poo-bum willy-face"? Twiglett, you sound remarkably like my prep-school DS. So now you know what it is that your children are missing out on!

I personally love private schools, having no experience whatsoever of state ones (and nor has my DH). And I do like the whole hats and scratchy socks thing (so long as it's the DCs who are wearing them!!) And the fees take up more than a third of our income, which doesn't leave much for Boden. But I'm sure your children will be absolutely fine!

Xenia on Sun 13-Jul-08 17:15:02
"I just read the father's column at back of Sunday Times style magazine. This week he describes a visit to a state school. It is so... well state.... a child present with a helper who has special needs and is shouting out; a teacher like a police man shouting at the children before it even starts that if there's trouble they'll be sent to the head (anticipating trouble); group of stroppy girls facing away from the teachers; too PC teacher talking about how he mustn't swear in his presentation. Seemed to summarise all that I pay to avoid."

Two things spring to mind:

Firstly, this description does not tally with my experiences of state schools. But fair enough: state schools like independent schools differ widely, and no doubt there are some that could be described as above.

Secondly, I had to read the passage three times before I could get my head round the fact that its author considers the presence of a child with Special Needs a drawback on a par with poor teaching. Something you would pay to avoid. Makes my mind boggle . I have seen how my dc's have benefited from the presence of classmates with SN needs; it makes them less frightened of people who look different or behave differently and more confident and willing to show empathy with them. And I think there are enormous learning benefits from helping others.

Other than this, I have neither felt private school envy or the conviction that any given state school has to be a better solution than any given independent school.

But the absence of parents who think of SN as a drawback is clearly a benefit I had forgotten to allow for. And I don't even have to pay for it...

There is always some-one who has something that looks better - the grass is always greener etc etc.

I am sure that there are lots of parents with dcs at private schools who simmer with envy at the facilities ofered by Eton (for example!).

We chose ds2 and ds3's private school partly because we felt it was more inclusive than our local state school (which is top of the league tables and has a terrible reputation with SN - children with SN are 'driven out'). I have just read some reviews of my son's school on a review website and one parent talks about how well they have catered for her child's 'complex SN'.

So ridiculous to equate state schools with kids with SN shouting out And also not fair to assume that everyone with a child at a private school has them there to avoid SN. Some of us have chosen the school because it's good with SN (ds2 and ds3 do not have any SN btw).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me as if sending your children to a private school means not actually spending that much time with them. The school day is longer, there is more homework from a young age, sports fixtures nearly every Saturday , and I would have to go back to work so I wouldn't even be able to spend the holidays with them...

IMHO it is better for our family that they see more of me rather than be sent to a private school.

There are of course hierarchies within private schools. My friend's daughter gets upset because so many of her friends went to selective indpendent schools instead of (like her) one that was just independent. Within the selective independents,
some have higher status. I do think that envying other people who have good things could get out of control. If you are happy and you said that you are happy with your child's school....well, you know the only natural conclusion to that don't you.

I only mentioned it because the article as in the Sunday Times. I suspect in most private schools you get less disruption lessons as parents would not stand for it and most of us want out children educated in class rooms where their learning is not interrupted by other children or any kind or held back by children who can't keep up with the standard of work of the class etc.

I don't agree with singersgirl. I think you benefit the state system much more by removing a child and putting it into the private system and saving the state the £5000 a year plus which every child in the state system costs and some kind of argument that my child is such a brilliant thiung that the state school chlidren woudl be seriously disadvantaged by not being able to bask in the glow of its presence if I had it educated privately. Surely the big benefit is really the money saving not the rather ephemeral benefit of the state system of having extra children to educate.

Children are unequal anyway. Some are pretty. Some slim. Some nice. You can never even out all inequalities until we make everyone clones with the same IQ level and personalities which I suppose is a traditional left wing aim - visions of North Koreans and Chinese in Mao suits coming to mind.

We have schools the envy of the world here in the UK, one of the of the things as a nation we should be most proud - in the private system.

But yes there will always be someone better and in fact the first post is really about jealousy and my posts have in part said what people need is either an acceptance of their lot or drive to change their income level so they can buy a good school place.

Is there a website reviewing schools? Where?

someone mentioned reviews on another thread nkf. I got nosey and just typed private school review UK into google and found one site and had a nose.

Emkana: ?????????????

My prep-school DS started an 8.5 week school summer holiday last Tuesday. Methinks I shall be seeing a very large amount of him for the foreseeable future... until he goes back to school prior to his 2.5 week October half-term.

And no, we don't do out of school clubs, sports or, um, anything organised at all (or anything out of school that costs money, given the school fees). Believe me, my DCs will be sick of the sight of me and our kitchen by the time term starts again!!

Oh, and we definitely do simmering with envy at Eton's facilities. Why does DS not make real working steam engines at school?

And finally... 13 years at an independent school, and I earn, um, nothing. Had I stayed in my job, I would have earned around £28K pa. However, I don't think the benefits of private schools are really to do with potential earnings! (My plan for DD, following her vastly expensive education, is that she will become a North Yorkshire SAHM of four, and that she will never need to do a single day's paid work. Though she will of course rebel and become a stockbroker or something .)

Message withdrawn

Emkana - We go and watch the sports matches on Saturdays. Also I'm a stay at home mum. They have broken up already and we are able to spend every day of the holidays together. I don't think generalising is helpful.

cod - Because you are too preoccupied with mosturiser envy.

my kids would not have had the experiences they have had if they had gone to state school,

sad!

My son is one of the cleverest in his class, has just got an absolutely glowing report - and he has a dreaded 'special helper'.
I wonder if the children feel terribly held back when he reads to them, does a talk about dinosaurs or history? Poor souls.
(oh a pace comments re privately educated children going to the National Gallery, so do state school ones - hundreds and hundreds of them!)
I have experience of children at state and private schools and I think at primary level at least, state school children tend to have less pressure and a more rounded experience.

Most state school parents try to pick the schools where their children will has as much low level disruption in class as possible. They want children to sit and learn not be avoiding knives or people chatting whilst the teacher is speaking etc. It's just that's it easier to buy that in the private system than go in for the lottery of trying to get into a state school with children committed to quiet respectful learning in the class room. I don't think my comment on that was particularly controversial.

May be Dott you were able to marry and find a man who wanted to marry you because you were well educated in a private school which is what has enabled you to be a stay at home mother with a family that can afford to keep you and pay school fees out of one income. Girls were always educated privately with the aim that they could marry well and stay at home until schools like my daughter's int he 1800s came along, North London Collegiate that weren't just educating girls for a good marriage.

"Yes, and the parents HAVE to tell you how great it is as they are insecure and look at everything in terms of monetary value, they also have a desperate desire to show off and let people know they are great (even though they are not)."

Late to the thread, but I never tell parents whose children are at state schools how great the DCs school is. Mostly I just mumble in a shame-faced way when they ask where they go or how they are doing.

I don't believe that we look at everything in terms of monetary value - surely if we did, then we would NOT be expending what feels like a small fortune (out of income that has already been taxed) for two children to go there. Surely it shows that we place education ABOVE monetary cost?

I have no desire to show off at all. TBH the post I have quoted is more than a little chippy. I don't have a problem at all. Do you?