I am happy with my children's state education but every so often I find myself talking to a 'private education' parent and just feel totally stressed

[Twiglett]

that there is no way my children can have the same quality and range of education and range of experiences and access to extra-curricular activities

poo-bum willy-faced bollox

As I have stated frequently on this thread, I am not personally in the all-independent-schools-must-be-awful camp. I am quite happy to concede that many independent schools may have a lot to offer.

I just object to children of low intelligence/learning difficulties being lumped together with violent and disruptive children as if the two naturally went together.

My ds is probably the sort of dim child that certain posters would not want to hold their children back. While not SN he is struggling with learning to read and write. But he has never disrupted a lesson in his life. And he is certainly not violent. I doubt he would be able to pass an 11+ test in 3 years time, but that doesn't mean he has behavioural difficulties; his school report never fails to stress his good manners and consideration for other people.

His best friend at school is in top set for the set subjects and is clearly very intelligent. Yet both their families and their teachers agree that these boys are gaining from each other's friendship; they are learning from each other. Different things perhaps, but they are both learning, and both thriving.

Dd's best friend is a girl who is not at all where she is intellectually (or indeed socially). But friendship means so many things and dd obviously feels she is getting something worth having, otherwise she wouldn't have stayed best friends with her for over 6 years.

problem is fivecandles, we all use our life experiences to create our own opinions. I'm sorry if by sharing mine it causes you offense.

No offense whoopsie. I'm just thinking that using your example of 2 people who you happen to know who went to private school and ended up with psychological problems which may not have been connected with the school in any way with the implication that private schools are a bit rubbish really and just churn out drug addicts and layabouts perhaps just doesn't add much to the debate.

Very important issue. Probably most parents on the thread agree that they want their child in a class where the other children aren't thumping him,. no one is swearing, no one is so disruptive because of their background or SN that the other children cannot properly learn. But what you might disagree with me on is the simple IQ issue.

The reason North London Collegiate and Haberdashers my girls' old schools get good results as well as good teaching etc is so many children apply for places and most don't get them and only the pretty bright get a place. Then obviously you have some mixed ability - my children were never top of the class etc and some children are very very clever but presumably they all have an IQ over 120 and you can do whole class teaching and work at quite a high level. The reason academic private schools are often 1 - 2 years ahead of state schools at primary level is because you are educating those with the high IQ as the state grammar schools do. What I have bought is a place where my chidlren can be educated only with children who are quite clever. It works fine.

It is not stop them being able to talk to people with lower IQs, doesn't make them look down on people like that and doesn't make them isolated from real life because they live a normal life in a normal world but in class the people are better. I'm afraid it's the same with me - I prefer to go out to dinner with people who are clever and interesting. I prefer meetings and work with people who are bright. It's just what I find more interesting I'm afraid.

I like a bit of unashamed snobbery Xenia. So do I in fact. So what?

On a slightly different tangent, I was thinking about Xenia while doing my washing-up (as you do...), and I was thinking that I do find her general take on things rather admirable. I couldn't disagree more with her about women and work, but I do wholeheartedly admire and sympathise with her apparent belief that everyone should be aiming as high as possible.

My DS's head teacher gave a speech at the end of term a propos SATS; the gist of it was that "Standard" should not be good enough for any child. Some will disagree, but it reminded me exactly why I'm wearing charity shop clothes and walking everywhere so I can afford the fees!!

Xenia on Tue 15-Jul-08 19:55:48

"I'm afraid it's the same with me - I prefer to go out to dinner with people who are clever and interesting. I prefer meetings and work with people who are bright. It's just what I find more interesting I'm afraid."

Obviously, you and I are very different, Xenia. I have friends with very high IQs and others who are not at all clever in the way you mean. I find different things make different people interesting. Intellectual brilliance can be one of them, but it is not the only one.

Please note that this is not about political correctness- I am not PC enough to choose my friends out of pure political convictions. I just genuinely enjoy the wisdom of one friend, the sheer whackiness of another, the courage and resourcefulness of a third, the warmth of a fourth. I enjoy discussing the limitations of the Lachmannian method one evening and local gossip the next. The one does not detract from my enjoyment of the other: there is simply no contradiction as far as I am concerned.

I find my ds interesting not just because he is my son, but because his skills at reading people's needs and motives are deeply impressive and he has a great sense of humour. These are great assets, but they are unlikely to get him high marks in any known school test and almost certainly wouldn't show up on an IQ test either.

I think we are just going to have to accept that we do not see eye to eye on this one.

I have to add to this discussion as I'm most suprised by Xenia's comments. Based on the schools she mentions we live in a similar part of the country and I am an ex Habs girl so feel relatively qualified to comment.

There are a number of truly superb state schools in NW London which offer an excellent level of education. My own child, who is state educated, despite us being more than able to pay school fees, is working at the same level and above as his prep school friends. His school has very good academic standards, strict and fair discipline, wonderful pastoral care and children who are eager to learn. Pointedly, many of the children in his class were offered places at independent schools but the parents felt that this state school and another dozen I could mention offer primary education on par with the local private schools.

Whilst schools such as Haberdashers are fantastic and do open doors, I know from experience that unless you have child who is incredibly academic and very thick skinned then these schools can destroy every ounce of self confidence the child has. Private for the sake of private is no answer, it has to be one which suits the child.

Would I send my child to a private school? It's a hard decision but ultimately, it depends on them. If I think that they'll thrive at a Haberdashers then they'll be sitting the 11+ or going to the remaining Grammars in the area. If I don't then they can go to one of 2 or 3 outstanding comprehensives local to us. What I do know is that I wouldn't waste my money just to say that I'd gone private when I have what I have on my doorstep...........a lovely nurturing state school which offers a great all round education, minimal homework and the vast majority of pupils living within walking distance to the school

There is no comparison between the local state schools, even the grammars in Bucks and the private schools in my view but let's see how are children are doing, their status, their earnings when they're in their 30s and 40s before we are able to conclude who is right.

There are certainly some parents locally who at 11+ if the child passes for grammar etc they will use the state system - usually because their income isn't very high or they're a bit left wing or they want to spend the money on shoes or whatever; every year we saw that from the prep school my ex husband taught at but very very few. Most were going on to good private schools at 11 or 13.

If you take good A level subjects in proper subjects maths, physics etc and compare those results between the two sectors even in selective state schools the private schools we're talking about do better plus most of the pupils are more all rounders.

I know loads of children from schools like Habs and don't know a single one who has had self confidence destroyed. Good schools build self confidence. Perhaps parenting of some children makes them so weak inside they can't cope unless everyone is telling them they are brilliant every day and they never get a cross or red mark on the page but what we want from school is to develop the child's robustness so in the real world it can know how it compares with others and can cope with not being told it's perfect. In a sense you buy that in the private system.

But if some are content with state schools and some private then isn't that fine? People make their choice. It's when someone like the first poster is jealous that either she needs to earn enough to pay fees (or marry a richer husband if she can bear to take money from men!) or else learn internally to accept those things she can't change.

Dannyb, I'm interested in what you say about the need to be thick skinned at private schools. I think many of us accept that children need to be tough to make it though many state schools but what is it about the private ones that can be harmful?

Xenia on Thu 17-Jul-08 08:21:52
"There is no comparison between the local state schools, even the grammars in Bucks and the private schools in my view but let's see how are children are doing, their status, their earnings when they're in their 30s and 40s before we are able to conclude who is right."

Yes, but this is still working on the assumption that we all accept the same value system:

higher salary/status= a more successful life choice

Which may not actually be the case.

Otherwise, I do agree with you in some respects. I don't think there is much point in wasting one's time in jealousy or envy.

oh FFS Xenia ..

with your oft repeated bollocks about money as the root of all happiness you paint a sad, sad picture.

I am not jealous .. I momentarily get stressed about the decision we have made for our family

I'm glad that money means one never thinks that one could have made the wrong decision. I'm glad that money gives one the conviction that every choice is the right choice.

'If you take good A levels in proper subjects etc' Xenia.
Actually in my area the grammar school does outperform the local private schools, sometimes even Cheltenham Ladies College, because of the calibre of student they take in the first place, ESPECIALLY in 'proper subjects'. However, the point I would like to make is that the private school system, in my opinion, spoon feed the relatively bright children who then all go on to get their 4 As at A level, those children with the same raw intelligence would probably not get those grades at the local comprehensive and this DOES NOT MAKE the children at the private school any more intelligent, it just means they have been better prepared for the exams. However, it does give them an INFLATED OPINION of how clever they really are and this is what I object to in Xenia's attitude in the general. I simply can't bear it and can't bear it at my children's universities (yes, yes, Russell group etc) where they all stay in their 'tribe', making no attempt to integrate with the others, some being genuinely 'shocked' at my children's grades etc from a state school, and then go on to their jobs in the City etc. and so it goes on. By the way I am not in the tiniest bit jealous, I would pay good money NOT to have my children educated in the private sector, having seen the sort of 'well rounded' children they produce. Many posters have said it before, and I will repeat it,ad nauseum if necessary, NOT EVERYONE is motivated by earning as much money as possible in order to enjoy their life or be happy. Many children are perfectly happy at their state schools, are not in the slightest bit jealouse of their counterparts in the private sector and, in some cases, actually feel sorry for them.

Cheltenham LC is not a particularly academic school, not compared with the other schools talked about on this thread.

I want my children to have a broad range of interests. I want an education which enables them to find out what those talents are that they have and I believe the private sector has given them good chances to do that. If in passing they also pick jobs that are well paid then that will smooth theirs lives to an extent but it's by the by. If my daughter do what they think they've chosen they may be well paid but I will be equally content if they pick something else. I just want them to have those choices.

On tribes I think people can change tribe at university. I've seen people do it - adopting a rougher accent or becoming posher or whatever or finding their religion suddenly or throwing it off. University gives you the chance to remodel yourself and I love looking at how young people do that (I was at a university graduation yesterday).

If private schools gives children self confidence then that is a good thing for an individual child. In life, in interviews, with men, with your children self confidence is a huge gain, arguably more advantageous in life than good looks or high A level results. My 5 children differ and some are shyer than others and I've always thought I was pretty shy but I hope some of the ability to deal with different people, speak in public, know how to talk to people has rubbed off on some of them.

I just don't see why earning a reasonabl amount of money plus being happy isn't a nice aim for your children. Why not? If they can be happy running a plc or happy serving on the counter in Tesco I'd rather they ran the plc.

This thread is very interesting.
I don't see any problem with the OP questioning her choices - it's what makes us intelligent.
My children are educated at an indie school but OF COURSE I have questioned whether that's the correct way forward for them and our family.
For what it's worth, I often get the same barage of comments from my all state schooled family, endlessly telling me about their facilities, their ofsted report, their SATS ( I couldn't tell you what my school's are ). Then there's the plethora of views that all, absolutely every one mind, indie kids end up snobs, drug addicts, lay abouts, lacking in street smarts and generally hopeless misfits.
Naturally it makes me think. But then common sense prevails and I relax into my choices.
So don't worry if you feel occasionally rocked - it happens to most of us.

Xenia on Thu 17-Jul-08 09:26:02

"I just don't see why earning a reasonabl amount of money plus being happy isn't a nice aim for your children. Why not? If they can be happy running a plc or happy serving on the counter in Tesco I'd rather they ran the plc."

When you pick your comparisons you always make the lower job one of relatively little interest and the better paid job one more interesting.

What about if your children had a chance for a badly paid job where they could really make a difference to other people's lives? Or where they are making the most of their talents- as artists or teachers or whatever? Or where the job itself is interesting and challenging- like my nephew's carpenting jobs?

It is possible, you know, to have an interesting life without running a company or even without earning a lot of money.

I would add that self-confidence can cut both ways. I have known people whose self-confidence was a wonderful asset because it opened doors and helped them to make the most of themselves. I have known others for whom it was a drawback because it made them less sensitive to other people's feelings and effectively closed doors for them by making them rub people up the wrong way.

As a university teacher, I often see over-confident students struggling because they do not ask for help in time, being convinced that just being them and having been given the right start in life will carry them through.

Yes and there is a very thin line between 'self confidence' and downright arrogance. And for 'over confident students struggling' don't even get me started.... that is a very nice way of putting it Cory. I think 'not as bright as might think they are when actually in the real world of university' might fit the bill better. Agree with the Tesco versus running own (presumably multi million pound) company analogy as well!!! Hilarious.

They get their comeuppance when it comes to applications for jobs if they have no competence or think they are better than they are. It all pans out in the end.

If my children can enjoy running a plc or being surgeons or whatever and earn reasonable sums so they are not struggling to pay nannies and school fees and buy houses I would rather they did that than become teachers and have money worries. If they would be miserable in higher paid work and very happy in lower paid work that's fine too. I'm the alternative one in a sense, the one with the island, the one who supported my sister when she joined a cult. I'm not against people making all kinds of life choices but it should be from a position of knowledge which not all young people do have. They don't always realise if they pick career X when they're 22 that means Y in terms of their future life..unless I suppose they can marry a rich man. My husband was very lucky he could continue as a brilliant organist but was well off and didn't have to work because he married me. Plenty of women follow the same philosophy which I suppose means we should be packing them off to finishing school or place rich men go.

shit is this still going on?

This was a fleeting feeling as a result of the standard private school parent comments on the extra-curricula activities available to her eldest child

yes it was probably partly jealousy, but it was also that standard 'did I make the right choice' feeling that we all question ourselves on.

I do hate it when interesting and supportive threads are turned into a boring repetitive argument that we've seen time and time again.

Is your clairvoyancy facility turned to 'off today, Twigg?

"Xenia on Thu 17-Jul-08 12:20:09
They get their comeuppance when it comes to applications for jobs if they have no competence or think they are better than they are. It all pans out in the end."

Well, no, they get their comeuppance at the end of Semester 1, when their exam results hit them. But the problem is that I don't want them to get their comeuppance. Poetic justice doesn't appeal to me in the least: I want to see good work!

I want everybody to perform to the absolute best of their ability, and every year I see students whose self-confidence prevents them from doing just that. And then the shock means they're not doing their best in Semester 2 either.

I am not saying I want my students (or my children) to grow up without self-confidence. Only that self-confidence is one of those things that work best in moderation.

And generally angrier than usual, Twig. Don't worry about your decision. After all you began it by saying that you were happy.

That doesn't seem to be the case with my children's friends who tend to be naturally bright and from private schools. Perhaps that's just because the schools really are particularly full of very clever children rather than the posh but dim ones.

Also I have noticed (and I've 3 at univesrity stage) that those from the private school and richer backgrounds seem to be making wiser career choices in terms of perpetuating that ability to fund places for their children at fee paying schools and replicate their parents' life styles but I suppose that's inevitable.