Law degree

[Acleme]

Hi My 17 years old daughter would like to study law in a Russel group university or via an apprenticeship degree. She knows that it is difficult to make it in that field due to fierce competition. I advised her to study surveying instead but she had set her mind on law. Does anyone knows what is the best way to get into an apprenticeship degree? Thanks

You might want to ask MN to move this to Higher Ed @Acleme

To answer the question about the apprenticeship – any apprenticeship but especially one leading to a degree is hard to get. They are very competitive as there are (obvs) a lot fewer than there are degree places at uni. You can look for apprenticeships on the UCAS website or on gov.uk.

What subjects is she taking at A level? What are her PGs? I am assuming from her age that she has just finished year 12.

Does she have a specific uni in mind? City, campus, in London, in the north of the UK? That might be a better way of looking at it instead of fixing on an RG uni – there are unis outside that group that also offer an excellent uni education.

Depending on uni, she may have to take the LNAT – it's asked for by a group of the RG unis inc Bristol and some London unis, and usually sat between Sept and Jan of year 13 if planning to go to uni directly after A levels.

Thanks for your advice. Her predicted grades are A* in Italian and A in economics and business . Her GSCE don’ t meat the requirements for a Russel group university in London . Is there any other good university in London outside the Russel Group? Thanks

If she’s predicted A star AA she must have fairly decent GSCE results? What do you mean they don’t meet the requirements? My dd is also predicted AAA and is studying for the LNAT at the moment to give herself the best chance possible.

I am sure that there’s a website that lists the Russell Group universities?

There are lots of excellent universities in London and across the UK, tho my understanding is that for law it is better to study it in the country where you will practise (so England rather than Scotland, if planning to live in England). Please don’t get hung up on the RG (tho tbf I should flag that both my uni DC did/are doing well at non-RG unis so maybe that colours my view). There are non-RG unis in London - basically anything apart from King's, UCL, LSE, Queen Mary and Imperial, as those as the five London unis in the RG.

Why do you say her GCSEs don't meet the RG London unis requirements? I would imagine that would be a 6 in maths and English - does she have lower grades than that? If so well done on her A level predictions as they are very strong.

Those subjects are not the most obvious perhaps (many students aiming high might have chosen more traditional subjects like Eng lit and history) but I just checked UCL at random and two of them are on its preferred list, which is all it asks for.

She got 5 in English and 6 in maths therefore does not meet the requirements of Russel group universities in London . Which other university in London could be a good alternative to Russel Group. Thanks.

Warwick
University of Birmingham

I don’t know enough about law degrees to know which non-RG London unis would be good for law tbh. I’m surprised with those A level PGs that she got a 5 in English (I mean I am not disbelieving you! it just seems a shame). Did she have a major disaster (or is English not her mother tongue – I only ask bc A-star in Italian is fairly unusual in the UK)?

Anyway the best-ranked unis in London to study law will be the RG ones – UCL, Queen Mary (esp), LSE and King’s. Otherwise maybe look at Birkbeck, SOAS, Brunel?

Does she have to be in London? How about somewhere like Nottingham that doesn't require a 6 in English?

If she definitely wants to do commercial or corporate law then yes for an apprenticeship otherwise I'd go to uni. The apprenticeships are very competitive and often only exist in corporate law, and a few for family law but other than that not plus it would mean she trains as a solicitor as there are no barrister apprenticeships. Obviously if that's why she wants she can go for it bit I'd apply to uni at the same time, plus uni means you can study a range of law modules not just the 7 compulsory ones and she may find she has a love for criminal law or immigration law etc. She could also get an LLB with another subject if she's interested in Politics or Sociology or some other combos as well. She has to have a definite desire and interest in commercial and corporate law (think high end real estate mergers etc), otherwise she may be disinterested and she's never going to completely be prepared for the topics that take up her day-to-day. Whereas with a degree she can try everything and still have more time to change her mind.

She can look at Exter, Warwick Birmingham. Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, York, Durham, Bristol. They're all RG and very good and well respected unis to consider, she could also consider Cardiff (as she'd still get qualified in England with that).

She is thinking of Nottingham. I did call the admissions department at LSE but was told that with her GSCe she does not stand a chance .

She won’t stand a chance if you’re doing the phoning either!

There are plenty of RG unis offering Law outside London.

@Acleme your daughter should be able to find all the basic information she needs on universities and apprenticeships here:

UCAS

And, while you will naturally wish to support her, she needs to do the research herself - as it is her decision and she’ll be doing the course.

The people I know that became lawyers all did unrelated degrees before doing a conversion course and LPC. Random point I know but she may want to be aware that she can become a lawyer with a fairly unrelated degree if she wants to go that way.

I would also check out how future proof law is due to AI.

You will still need a lawyer to represent you in court in person, you will need someone to cross-examine witnesses in court, you will still need to have someone who knows the nuances of law and you still will need a personable relationship with a lawyer. Yes some law firms have gotten to use contract drafting AI software but it doesn't mean that law won't be a very fool-proof profession in many different ways.

That does mean, however, that you get to study less actual Law - which is a shame if you find the subject intellectually interesting.

Some non-Russel Group unis are ranked higher for law than some RG ones. Have a look at this list https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/best-universities-uk-law-degrees - lots to consider

@MarthaBeachThe Times rankings are not always what employers do though. Surrey does not trump Bristol. Bristol, for example, requires LNAT and considers GCSE grades!

If she wants the best university she’s got a slight problem with Economics and Business being similar and the low grade in English GCSE. So I’d start getting her to ring Law admissions at universities. I’d forget UCL and LSE and possibly Kings but QMUL has a good track record of employment in London. I’d also consider Reading, Surrey, Southampton and Kent. She’s short of an analytical essay subject like English or History so very competitive places might be out.

OP, please forgive the pedantry, but if your DD is really fixated on studying at a Russell Group university (named after the hotel where the university heads held their meetings to plan their strategy for maximising the amount of research funding they could channel towards their institutions, btw, so today would either be the Kimpton Fitzroy London Group, or they would choose somewhere else to go for coffee), one hopes that she herself will have noticed the spelling of it.

Thanks

tbh unless she was unwell in the exam I'd question the choice of law if she got a 5 for GCSE English. Was the 5 lower than expected? I would have thought you need atleast a 7?

Marching frog thanks for pointing out the spelling mistake made by an Italian mother tongue and I do apologise to an English speaker for such an unforgivable mistake. However I was not interested in the history of the Russell group. Have a nice day.

I doubt they'll be keeping a checklist on her at this stage!

I'm sure she'll get in somewhere OP. Plenty of Law courses all over the place. If she's set on RG then work hard to get the grades. That's it really.

Excellent point. It’s not future-proof at all, so OP’s DD should tread carefully.

Wow! 😅

Even for mumsnet that is a ridiculously unhelpful post.

Please don’t try and dissuade your DD from a course she is interested in. In my experience, which is significant, students who drop out or do poorly at University often attended Uni to satisfy their parents and not because of a genuine interest in their course.
If you are successful in your attempts she will forever wonder what her life would have been like had she had more autonomy.