Law degree

[Acleme]

Hi My 17 years old daughter would like to study law in a Russel group university or via an apprenticeship degree. She knows that it is difficult to make it in that field due to fierce competition. I advised her to study surveying instead but she had set her mind on law. Does anyone knows what is the best way to get into an apprenticeship degree? Thanks

@Nottodaythankyou123 You have seen the stats on apprenticeships haven’t you? For solicitors there are around 140. Paralegals possibly more but apprenticeships are stopping for older dc so it’s then not a given paralegals get qualified as solicitors. It’s a hugely competitive route and frequently used to boost under represented groups in society. So wanting one and getting one are two different things.

@Acleme if that last comment is in answer to my "disaster?" question, I’m sorry that you lost your mum but really I was thinking rather was your DD a candidate who would expect to gain a 6/7/8 in English (is this lang or lit btw? or both?) but for some reason did not – like she failed to turn over a page, or wrote an essay on the wrong book or similar massive error. What I meant was, was her 5 totally unexpected and not a demonstration of her true ability? If so then it is less of a concern, that's all. A level PGs of A-star AA are excellent; but IME they are also unusual following GCSEs of 5 and 6 in core subjects.

To answer this comment from @MrPickles73 Law at a RG uni will be super competitive to get into. the unis will choose those with the 'best' results in most favoured subjects first e.g. 11 Astars at GCSE and A level history, English etc – I am not sure if you were exaggerating for the sake of effect, but in case you weren't, or in case anyone takes you at your word – no uni is asking for 11 top grades at GCSE. Very few year 11s even take 11 GCSEs, and last year fewer than 1300 of those taking 7 or more gained all 9s. So obviously even Oxford alone (approx 3,300 students in a year) cannot demand all 9s or it would not fill its seats. And that's if all those candidates wanted to go there.

I guess you were saying more, be realistic and choose A levels carefully, and I would agree with that. But I think the narrative that all (or any) RGs demand all grade 9s at GCSE, while I see it repeated on MN, is fatally flawed. Law at Oxford alone takes more than 200 students each year. They could not possibly all have all 9s. And that's just one of 24 RG unis.

Much like getting training contracts then, there simply aren’t enough for the demand. As a whole it’s a competitive industry - I’m not for one minute saying she’ll just swan into one, I’m saying if I were looking to get into law now, I’d be targeting an apprenticeship.

Also, just to add - year on year (anecdotally in my neck of the woods) more firms are offering them, and they’re offering them in bigger numbers, so I’d expect the number available to keep growing in future (albeit not in line with demand!)

@Nottodaythankyou123 What eventual work do the apprentices do? Criminal and the lowest paid roles? Non RG uni degree? I’d be very careful.

@MrPickles73 You don’t need all 9s at gcse but grades above 5 in maths and English might get dc ruled out!

We’ve got a couple who have just finished their apprenticeships - so have the degree, SQE & 6 years work experience and are qualified solicitors, like me but without £50k of student debt. One has qualified into litigation and one into com prop.

A bit like a training contract they’ve done “seats” but longer ones offer the full 6 years, with a day a week off for study.

There are too many qualified lawyers now. She needs to choose a profession that needs more qualified people - doctors, nurses, teachers?

I agree but she has a mind of her own and does not take advice from me.

@Acleme - if she wants something badly, is willing to work for it and will achieve those grades, then please do not discourage her.
Is Queen Mary London not possible either? They also have enhanced GCSE but not in Maths and English. DD has friends doing degree apprenticeships doing their degree part there too.

She does not think she has any chance to get into Queen Mary’s.

QMU is a shout actually – I just checked and it doesn’t specifically require grade 6 in English. It does need a specific level of GCSE tho – 777766 – did she get that even if not in English?

@Dillydollydingdong ? How can she be a doctor with her A levels? Teach what? No school wants someone to just teach Italian. How could she be a nurse? Have you checked DDs A levels? Agree too many doing law degrees but a better option might be a business degree?

Riserie enough of your opinions. Please refrain from commenting.

I’m not sure she’s been particularly well advised re a level choices if she was aiming for a top university for law unfortunately. While there has been some harshness on the thread , there is a relevant point that the MFL a level for a native speaker will be viewed slightly differently. However, I disagree with the advice another poster made to do an Italian degree a then post grad law. I did MFL at university and while the native speakers had an advantage for the language components, there were some who really struggled with the more analytical modules including one who only just scraped a 2:2 and had a very real possibility of getting a third which would have made her virtually unemployable.

If she wants to go for it then I think she will have a barrier re academics to overcome but could potentially get over that with a lot of work experience and being self driven. I used to do a lot of graduate recruitment and competition is tough but I did sometimes go a bit left field if someone had really impressed me with their drive outside of their course. Your daughter will need to understand that the degree alone (assuming she gets a place) won’t be enough and she will need to fill her cv. I always had high demand from young people with excellent academics, lots of work experience or voluntary work, university society positions etc. I wasn’t in law but I can’t see that being any less competitive.

Business degrees are so broad - in this day and age, niche is better. I know about 15 people with business degrees, and none of them are doing anything related now as they simply couldn’t get jobs.

@Nottodaythankyou123 Totally depends where the degree is from! Bath grads don’t have many problems getting jobs. She would need to choose the best but it’s perfectly possible to get a job. Maths is an issue though.

I would say Law at a Russell group will be highly competitive. My Dd is also 17 and wants to do Law. Her GCSES are 7 grade 9 and 3 grade 8 and predicted A levels of 4 A* in Philosophy, History, Politics and German (she’s not German - she just loves the language and wants to combine it with Law). She’s also got an A* EPQ and has won a couple of essay competitions including a Cambridge one. She’s done relevant work experience in Law and is head girl at her school.

Even then - it’s highly competitive. I honestly think it’s important to be realistic here. Your dd is obviously very able but Law at Russell group will be incredibly difficult to get into and apprenticeship probably even harder. If there are contextual factors/mitigating circumstances then that could make a difference. Or if she applied for an LNAT uni and did exceptionally well in the LNAT.

OP, you might find this table useful

@Fatsnowflake Your dd will walk into most RG though and they are really not all the same! Your dd could look at Oxbridge but DD here cannot. Dont assume QMUL requires the grades your dd should get, it doesn’t. There is possibly some flexibility at others and some non RG do pretty well for law jobs, eg Reading.

@Dillydollydingdong , The GCSE Maths and English grades aren't good enough for those degrees.

What about looking for Law with Italian Law courses. There may be less competition for places ?? Quick search has pulled up both Royal Holloway and Leicester offering this course. Both look like her GCSE English would be fine.

Yes fair enough. Dd has her heart set on Oxford but we will see. Durham’s grade requirements are even higher than Oxford for Law.

I do know Lancaster has a good reputation and lower grade requirements. Don’t know much about QML but being in London would be good for contacts.

@Fatsnowflake what % do Oxford take with the minimum offer (AAA?). Hardly any. It’s a guide to get dc over the starting line. It’s not what the successful applicants actually get.

Yes that’s true -realistically candidates who meet the standard will achieve higher than the minimum offer. LNAT is very important too. Even with DD’s predicted grades and GCSES, she won’t get an interview without a good LNAT score.