Play date with mum who agrees with education tax

[BonnuitMy]

Please let me know if I’m overreacting. I recently overheard a new mum at school talking about a local private school closing down due to the education tax and how this is somehow a good thing. She’s now invited my DD for a play date, would you accept?

I understand, it’s more that if someone with below average intelligence is being bullied for being too clever then what sort of mess are the schools in?

That statement reads like you consider @TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne to be of below average intelligence - did you really mean for it to come over like that or are you trying to cleverly insult her without saying it in so many words?

@Araminta1003 @BonnuitMy
You have now between you added 'low intelligence' to bigot; 'racist', 'generational bullying', and 'requiring therapy,' as another handy label for anyone who doesn't agree with your world view.
Do you really think that childish, offensive, and nonsensical insults are the best way to debate? It's just so purile and disappointing.
I was going to ask if you behave like this in real life - but from @BonnuitMy's OP it rather looks as if you do. (Incidentally 93% of responses on this thread suggest you are being unreasonable - all bigots perhaps?)

To answer your question @Araminta1003 just in case it was asked in good faith...)
A government with some genuine Socialist policies and banning private education would both help to reduce barriers, but neither are likely to happen.
You won't agree, and that's fine - but unlike you I always try to engage politely without childish name calling and casting completely ficticious and offensive slurs on others.
At least MN removed your utterly vile and baseless accusation of racism.

@Allergictoironing There’s a lot to get through there, but I can answer two points

Why is it called an education tax?
Because it’s a tax on education.

Confused by it being expensive for the tax payer?
If parents don’t pay for their children’s education, then the tax payer pays. It’s around £8.5k a year per child. The treasury puts the break even point at a 10% shift in PS to state. That would cost the state around 450 million a year to educate the children that were previously no cost to the tax payer. The forecast education tax in take would also drop by around 200 million. You also have to add in redundancy/benefit payments for job losses including secondary businesses relying on the schools.

There's no need to try to insult me by suggesting that I have below-average intelligence.
You're not coming across well here,@BonnuitMy

At least I know how to use semi-colons

Excuse me, don’t put words in my mouth. I wrote below average intelligence, a negative attitude to education is an indication of this.

the seriously rich will always be able to pay anyway

The more wealthy have pre-paid years ahead so won’t be paying the VAT. I know very few people paying the VAT this year (even those on lower incomes), because they’ve rearranged their finances or had family help to pre pay at least this current year, thus avoiding the VAT. The most expensive schools, ie the ones with potentially the largest VAT amounts, have parents who can afford to pay a few years ahead.

However they didn't have etiquette and deportment lessons, and there'd been very little emphasis on things like sewing.

I think perhaps private schools have changed somewhat since you attended. I don’t know a single private school in our area which has etiquette lessons.

Just because I disagree with the essential premise of a thread doesn't mean I'm unintelligent.

I wasn't actually claiming to be particularly intelligent anyway. I was merely saying that the other children at school had perceived me as such, and had bullied me as a result of their collective perception. My experience isn't an unusual experience, either. It's simply classed as "othering".

I think the OP was implying that you aren't clever so any school where you would be considered clever enough to be bullied for it would be a terrible school i.e. full of unintelligent kids.

She's just being snidey.

A whole thread on Independent education - yet neither the Op's child nor the child that is having the play date goes to independent school...

I think perhaps private schools have changed somewhat since you attended. I don’t know a single private school in our area which has etiquette lessons.

Well, that's a shame.

I remember visiting a private primary school once (as an adult) and being fascinated and horrified in equal measure by the children's inability to eat with their mouths shut. It was perfectly revolting to see.

Well spotted!

and please don't assume ' I don’t know much about private schools really but I’d assume most PS kids go to state schools at some point? Like at primary school or Alevels '

Out of a year of 24 children in 2003, 6 of these children stayed in Independent school/s until the age of 18 and 3 of these children were in the Nursery belonging to the school from the age of 2.

So if everyone has pre paid why is it making schools close? I don’t get it.
Well, actually I do, and it’s what I said pages ago - schools aren’t closing ‘because of VAT’ - they are closing because they’ve hiked fees for years CoL has reduced disposable income and/or their financial management is poor. VAT may have accelerated closure by a term or so in a small number of schools, that’s all.

The banning of private education would be all well and good if there was an effective and equitable alternative. The state system is certainly not that. It is marred by inequalities (review inequalities of achievement amongst certain minority groups). Much of it caused by racial bias. This is an historic, recognised problem. Yet, we don’t hear the advocates of state education rallying in any meaningful way against this injustice. And that is because it does not affect your own children. This tells me that an equitable system is NOT the priority for the masses, but rather a system that does not disadvantage their own DC. And most people perceive private schools to do just that – give other children an advantage over their own. Therefore, it must GO! This is not a moral or ethical issue, as is often claimed; simply one of self-interest.

It’s because of this that you will often be referred to as hypocrites and why some parents who have made the decision to educate their DC outside of the state sector (whether privately or at home, or a combination of the two) will never feel the need to justify their decision.

I am not ‘buying privilege’ (which is often said of parents whose DC attend a private school). But I am privileged to recognise the inequitable state education system we have and have the means to avoid it for my DC.

Someone on this thread, I believe, once said something along the lines of ‘the state system has not caused harm to any child’. Only someone with unrecognised privilege could make such a claim.

I am not ‘buying privilege’ (which is often said of parents whose DC attend a private school)

Oh, I see. Private education is free.

I didn't realise.

I apologise for misrepresenting your slur about another poster.
However if the best you can do is argue about which unjustified slur you used below average intelligence v low intelligence, then I think you've completely missed the point.

Your full comment was "I understand, it’s more that if someone with below average intelligence is being bullied for being too clever then what sort of mess are the schools in?" Which strongly implies that you regard @TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne of below average intelligence. You may not have fully intended to say that, but that's how it comes over to many people. You need to learn to be very careful how you phrase things, especially in a debate regarding schooling.

Because lots of families can afford to get to the end of this academic year but have decided to switch going forwards. The VAT hasn’t applied for this entire academic year. In addition, many families are choosing not to start down the private route. Both of these things have meant falling pupil numbers at many schools, which has made some (especially the smaller ones) no longer viable. The VAT, business rates and NIC have been the final straw for many schools which were just hanging on. It isn’t the most expensive, wealthiest schools which are affected. Those parents can afford the fees (or have pre paid years ahead). It’s the smaller, cheaper schools which are being most affected. It is making private educated even more exclusive.

A very large number of parents who pay for their children's education are doing it as much if not more for the fact they are mixing with people they perceive as from the elite, or at least higher classes. They speak with a posher accent which "rubs off" on their children. They have friends who's fathers can offer them a job when they graduate (heaven forbid they don't go to Uni & have to go into trade!). They have connections that carry on into adulthood. The simple fact of having the private school on their CV can help with their careers.

Those are the main privileges that paying school fees can bring, and yes that are definitely privileges outside of the quality of the education.

@Dealswithpetty
Absolutely agree with the state sector needing to be levelled up and improved, interestingly the poorest educational results tend to be for working class white boys who generally perform at a lower level than other ethnic groups - so there are both ethnic and class elements at play here.
My view is that the private school system has enabled the lowest levels of attainment in schools to be ignored (by both main parties). For all the Eton raised politicians and PMs who won't have a clue about how the other half live (and let's be honest really won't care) this just won't be on their radar as they have no 'skin in the game'.
My views on education in the UK have nothing to do with my ability or not to pay for private education. I simply have an ethical problem with the inequalities in the UK at both ends of the spectrum. Removing the privileges that go with private education would be one element of that. Improving state schools to the level of the best in the UK is another. But I would suggest that a large influx of middle class children (and parents) into the state sector might actually have a positive influence on those schools.

@allergictoironing

I STILL can't get why this is being called an "Education Tax"

It's quite simple. See the government information below which OP kindly linked Since 1 January 2025, all education services and vocational training provided by private schools in the UK for a charge have been subject to VAT at the standard rate of 20%.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-education-and-vocational-training-notice-70130

'Education' is a bit snappier than 'education services and vocational training'.

You're right that the government haven't restricted it to academic education though. They're also hitting those pesky private school kids with tax on anything they can think of eg music lessons. Only in private schools - the same external teacher charging the same amount to state parents is still tax--free.

You'd probably object even more to us calling it the 'hurt-the-posho-kids' tax though. And that wouldn't be quite accurate either, since not all private school kids being hit by this tax are poshos.

a policy which is likely to turn out very expensive to the taxpayer
A little confused by the logic here - how? Maybe the very low numbers of children added to the state schooling system, considering that approximately 6% of children are at private school and the loss of the VAT loophole is very unlikely to mean more than about 1 in 10 of these children transfer to state schools - the seriously rich will always be able to pay anyway. So still a decent additional income to the Public purse from the tax.

I don't think you realise quite how much private schools directly save the government. About £3.5billion per year in direct savings - even without including either direct employment or supporting businesses by buying other services. Education is really expensive - even when funded by the state out of our taxes. Very much not free.

The analysis says that if just 10% of private school kids switch to state, then the policy will raise £0. Any more than that, and the policy will cost the the state money. Every year.

2.6% have moved already since January within the school year, despite in-year moves being something parents usually try to avoid. Wonder how much it will have dropped by in 7 years time, when people aren't tied in?

Then there's the question of what do the parents do with the extra money they now have which they aren't spending on luxury education costs - well they tend to spend it on other things which is good for the economy and adds to tax take from other items.

The government made the rather cavalier assumption that parents would spend all the money they saved choosing state on other VAT-able goods anyway. So none of that extra cash would be spent on holidays abroad, no 2nd hand cars (better than they would have bought otherwise, but not new), no mums staying part-time, no paid extra-curricular activities for the kids (VAT-free if in state!), no pension payments, no mortgage over-payments. Hmm. I don't think the government thought about it very hard.

I don't think you realise quite how much private schools directly save the government

Let's hear it for the private schools, the saviours of the economy.

And how do you know that racial biases don't affect the children of people on this thread? Because you think Mumsnet should just be for white women? As a black woman, I find that deeply offensive.
Almost as offensive as your idea that private schools are the best way to reduce inequalities in education. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back for having the "means to avoid state schools". The vast majority of people don't and that is absolutely a moral and ethical issue.

There is also snobbery/racism at play here.
We have friends who chose to privately educate their children. When I asked them why, there were a list of understandable positives such as smaller class sizes, better sports facilities etc. but then in apologetic tones made references to the disruptive Traveller children at the local primary.
Many private school parents aren't honest enough to admit that keeping their child away from children they perceive as 'undesireable' is often a driver too.