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Education

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Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 7

885 replies

ICouldBeVioletSky · 17/06/2025 00:02

Continuation of previous threads discussing VAT on independent school fees. The thread title is a headline from a Times article last autumn.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5237575-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5242586-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5280646-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5301690-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5317397-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5337850-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-6

Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 5 | Mumsnet

Starting a continuation thread in anticipation of the fourth one filling up… https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5301690-whitehall-braced-for-priv...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5317397-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-5

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
twistyizzy · 08/08/2025 16:51

tortoise18 · 08/08/2025 16:45

They haven't been at primary school for 5+ years, and "politician lives in his constituency and sends his kids to local state primary" is not the win for your mad views that you think it is. And Eleanor Palmer (no harm naming it because it's so long since they left) is a good primary school but has absolutely nowhere near the resources of a prep, and is nowhere near as good as it was a decade+ ago before the funding cuts hit, as you would know if you had the slightest bit of local knowledge from 300 miles away.

"Nowhere near the resources" because Starmer's wife who was on the board of governors blocked proposals to encourage affluent parents in the catchment area to make voluntary donations to help fund additional opportunities such as music, art and sport.

FYI it is an Outstanding school. Taken from a MN post about EP "EP are not reflective of the populations they are located in and as such very much reflect the priorities and aspirations of the middle class parents that attend them. The competitiveness of the parents at both schools is the stuff of local legend!"

Hhhmm sounds pretty much the sort of place an aspiring PM would want to send their children. Hardly a local sink school is it?

EasternStandard · 08/08/2025 16:58

Newbutoldfather · 08/08/2025 16:41

The same circular arguments ad infinitum…..

Governments can charge VAT on what they like. A private education is not a human right.

Private schools close and new ones open, and sometimes the private school population goes up a bit and sometimes down a bit. Mostly this is just a response to economic cycles.

It is not altruistic or good parenting to choose private, any more than it is to choose state. And, yes, parents can and will (rightly) help their children in many ways, not just schools. Middle class people s’ children will always be at an advantage.

Will it raise revenue? Probably. Will it raise significant revenue? Probably not.

But, like high rates of stamp duty, which is a truly stupid and iniquitous tax (it is basically a tax on divorce and mobility), I doubt anyone will reverse it any time soon.

We might all still think as we did, but your posts are here too.

tortoise18 · 08/08/2025 17:02

twistyizzy · 08/08/2025 16:51

"Nowhere near the resources" because Starmer's wife who was on the board of governors blocked proposals to encourage affluent parents in the catchment area to make voluntary donations to help fund additional opportunities such as music, art and sport.

FYI it is an Outstanding school. Taken from a MN post about EP "EP are not reflective of the populations they are located in and as such very much reflect the priorities and aspirations of the middle class parents that attend them. The competitiveness of the parents at both schools is the stuff of local legend!"

Hhhmm sounds pretty much the sort of place an aspiring PM would want to send their children. Hardly a local sink school is it?

There aren't any sink primary schools in Camden, really. The secondaries, where his children also go, are considerably less good. Did you want him move out of his constituency when his kids hit school age? At secondary, there would have been multiple ways to play the system that could have got his kids into better schools if that was the way he wanted to go. To his credit (unlike Tony Blair) he didn't.

He does live in the tiny catchment of EP, but the reason the catchment is tiny is that it's a small site with a 30-entry (that's one form, not three, prep school parents) instead of the usual London 60 (two forms, not six), and is in a built-up area which has a lot of council flats as well as £2m homes. Which, again, you wouldn't know from up there. I really don't know what you expected him to do that would satisfy you.

BustopherPonsonbyJones · 08/08/2025 17:15

I don’t see it as self-absorption, @tortoise18. Children have had their education disrupted at critical points of their academic lives - it seems fair to highlight this. People are losing their jobs - it seems fair to highlight this. Do you think the miners were self-absorbed when their industry was targeted? Why do you feel it is self-absorbed? @Newbutoldfather I agree it’s repetitive but I am glad it is. I don’t want Labour to wiggle away from the impact of their policy decision. They are accountable. And I am fairly certain it will end up costing the county a lot of money so it’s great to keep it in the media.

A general question which I know I could look up, but does anyone know if London state schools still get more funding than schools in other regions?

BustopherPonsonbyJones · 08/08/2025 17:26

tortoise18 · 08/08/2025 17:02

There aren't any sink primary schools in Camden, really. The secondaries, where his children also go, are considerably less good. Did you want him move out of his constituency when his kids hit school age? At secondary, there would have been multiple ways to play the system that could have got his kids into better schools if that was the way he wanted to go. To his credit (unlike Tony Blair) he didn't.

He does live in the tiny catchment of EP, but the reason the catchment is tiny is that it's a small site with a 30-entry (that's one form, not three, prep school parents) instead of the usual London 60 (two forms, not six), and is in a built-up area which has a lot of council flats as well as £2m homes. Which, again, you wouldn't know from up there. I really don't know what you expected him to do that would satisfy you.

To remove all impact of privilege, Starmer could send his very upper-middle-class children to the lowest rated comp in London or even in another town or city, say Watford or Barnsley. It would be good for him to see how he and his family are still privileged with the choices he makes. Perhaps rent a tiny, damp flat where his children have to share a bedroom, because it is a privilege to have lots of space in which to work and revise. I’d hope he doesn’t provide extra tuition for any of his children or, indeed, help them himself. That’s not fair when some children don’t have that opportunity from their parents. Probably best to stop any fancy holidays as not everyone can benefit from this. And, and, and…but it’s ridiculous. There is no way to level the playing field and Labour know it.

twistyizzy · 08/08/2025 18:12

tortoise18 · 08/08/2025 17:02

There aren't any sink primary schools in Camden, really. The secondaries, where his children also go, are considerably less good. Did you want him move out of his constituency when his kids hit school age? At secondary, there would have been multiple ways to play the system that could have got his kids into better schools if that was the way he wanted to go. To his credit (unlike Tony Blair) he didn't.

He does live in the tiny catchment of EP, but the reason the catchment is tiny is that it's a small site with a 30-entry (that's one form, not three, prep school parents) instead of the usual London 60 (two forms, not six), and is in a built-up area which has a lot of council flats as well as £2m homes. Which, again, you wouldn't know from up there. I really don't know what you expected him to do that would satisfy you.

Well you said EP wasn't as good as it used to be when that's obviously not true.

He is forcing other peoples kids who were forced our if indy schools to make long journeys to get an education cos their local state schools had no places. You asked if I wanted him to leave his constituency so his own kids can attend other schools, well that's the situation he is forcing on other people!

What I want is for Starmer et al to stop lying and gaslighting about the negative impact of this policy.

I want them to stop being hypocrites by buying their own children every advantage yet using that as something to castigate others with.

Araminta1003 · 08/08/2025 18:40

“The thought of first-hand knowledge of state schools being able to inform a politician into a stance on behalf of other people, rather than themselves, clearly hasn't crossed your mind. The self-absorbtion in this thread is staggering.”

Err? As a state school parent I am still waiting for the extra funding for state schools that one might reasonably expect from a Labour Government! Nothing of significance has been proposed whatsoever. Just a pointless policy attacking a parallel sector. No real acknowledgement that state schiols are catching up on pupils just as much as the NHS on patients! Nada, zilch except proposals to bring the parallel sector down and probably dumb down the state school curriculum - precisely so they don’t have to spend on the next generation. Too busy mismanaging the sovereign debt.

EasternStandard · 08/08/2025 19:01

Araminta1003 · 08/08/2025 18:40

“The thought of first-hand knowledge of state schools being able to inform a politician into a stance on behalf of other people, rather than themselves, clearly hasn't crossed your mind. The self-absorbtion in this thread is staggering.”

Err? As a state school parent I am still waiting for the extra funding for state schools that one might reasonably expect from a Labour Government! Nothing of significance has been proposed whatsoever. Just a pointless policy attacking a parallel sector. No real acknowledgement that state schiols are catching up on pupils just as much as the NHS on patients! Nada, zilch except proposals to bring the parallel sector down and probably dumb down the state school curriculum - precisely so they don’t have to spend on the next generation. Too busy mismanaging the sovereign debt.

I think the pp has missed that there are state school parents on the thread.

strawberrybubblegum · 08/08/2025 19:04

It's interesting that it's the possibility of losing school places which is getting the headlines with this. I find the whole policy wrong - and has the potential to destroy state services as well as being hugely unjust - but the school part should be the least contentious.

All children are entitled to a state school place - but not a specific school since sll schools are considered equally valid. They'd probably still need to allow for logistics such as sibling priority and reasonable travel distances.

But we all know that in reality there is huge inequality within the state education system - despite it being paid for by taxpayers and supposedly equally available to all - so of course it will hugely upset those who currently benefit from the inequality.

(I'm in no way supporting the policy, btw - just think it's an extension to the drive for comprehensive education which many here seem to believe in)

I find the proposal to give NHS priority - and possibly University and state employment opportunities - according to social class much more dangerous and problematic.

Why would we accept £292 billion per year - 11% of GDP - to be spent on state healthcare if we are given so little access that private health becomes obligatory? This would definitely destroy the NHS.

If Universities prioritise social engineering over ability, their quality will quickly drop (as Cambridge found with it's private school quotas). If it's extended to social class - maybe 30% of the population rather than 6% that will fairly quickly destroy our world-leading University sector.

If state sector jobs prioritise social engineering over ability then the downward spiral of state services will accelerate. I'm minded of the ATC guidelines in the US whose DEI initiative meant they scored candidates who selected 'I found maths difficult at school' in the DEI questionaire more highly... what could possibly go wrong?

It truly is the kind of through-the-looking-glass policy which everyone - surely even Labour - can see will end in disaster.

tortoise18 · 08/08/2025 20:21

That whole post is made up. Stay off the mushrooms.

Of course you find things that you've completely invented "problematic".

twistyizzy · 08/08/2025 20:25

tortoise18 · 08/08/2025 20:21

That whole post is made up. Stay off the mushrooms.

Of course you find things that you've completely invented "problematic".

Edited

And of course you would sat that in order to shut down opposition, just insult people.

ICouldBeVioletSky · 08/08/2025 21:08

tortoise18 · 08/08/2025 20:21

That whole post is made up. Stay off the mushrooms.

Of course you find things that you've completely invented "problematic".

Edited
Biscuit
OP posts:
strawberrybubblegum · 08/08/2025 22:59

tortoise18 · 08/08/2025 20:21

That whole post is made up. Stay off the mushrooms.

Of course you find things that you've completely invented "problematic".

Edited

What is made up?

Commentators are saying those changes could be part of Labour's updates to the Equality Act. New meaning of 'equality' of course: pure double speak from Labour!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/08/08/middle-class-children-shut-out-best-schools-equality-drive/

I suppose Labour haven't spelled out what they're intending to do yet, but they have form for lying about their intentions and then springing ridiculous policies on us.

strawberrybubblegum · 08/08/2025 23:02

I'm sure it will come out fairly soon. Labour don't leave us in suspense for too long before revealing their latest shitty lies.

But not to worry 'Everything's fine!'

strawberrybubblegum · 08/08/2025 23:10

twistyizzy · 08/08/2025 14:41

Well will wait to see what the socialists of London make of it when they are no longer able to buy their way into top state schools in the country!

You do realise that this discussion of Labour's proposed changes to the Equality Act is what led to the latest observations on Starrmer's kids schools, presumably @tortoise18? Or did you just jump in to defend him anyway?

It wasn't very far back, and was a bit scattered, so I didn't quote. I assumed everyone was following the discussion...

Tantomile · 08/08/2025 23:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

twistyizzy · 09/08/2025 06:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I have been on MN for around 13 years, never named changed etc.

This is the last time I will say this: I started 18 months ago on this topic being overly polite etc. I got me nowhere and my DD and I have been verbally attacked, sworn at etc.
I am not generally insulting to other posters unless they start insulting me but I am now direct, assertive and not afraid to challenge. The fact women are calling me out for this is risible, this site is fir women and now by robustly defending myself/calling out a shitty policy, I am suddenly a troll? Ffs that's crazy.

I will report any further accusations of being a troll because it's simply not true.

Yes I am directly impacted but more than that, I am aware of every other child who is impacted and the damage this policy is purposely having. So yes I am emotionally invested in it.

I can support each and every one of my arguments with evidence, that's a hell of a lot more than most people who support this policy/call me a troll can do.

I've never ever seen you post on here before so maybe you're the troll?

LeakyRad · 09/08/2025 07:01

Careful now @twistyizzy I suspect that the gander will not like the sauce! Perhaps, in addition to "insults", "rudeness" and "snarkiness" it will turn out that "flinging around accusations of trolling" is also an irregular verb/noun/adjective/etc?

(Might be my fault that the anti-taxation-of-education side has been accused of fakery - I do name change all the time, have different usernames approximately depending on what topic I'm discussing, been doing this for years. But anybody is welcome to report me if they want.)

EasternStandard · 09/08/2025 09:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

What’s with the baseless personal attacks?

FixTheBone · 09/08/2025 10:34

Araminta1003 · 18/06/2025 09:42

@strawberrybubblegum - as a parent, we should choose educational opportunities for our children to maximise outcome, given what we have available, reasonably speaking. All any of us can do is provide the best opportunities, within our means.
It is a competitive and international world out there now, who knows what will happen in the next decades. What I do know is that the young and educated will be universally valued. If they are underestimated here, the world will be her oyster anyway. So why would you limit her opportunities based on propaganda?

And even for us state school parents we get a lot of hate if we choose to send them to eg grammar school. I tend to just ignore it and smile.

I do really feel for parents of SEND children right now though. The uncertainty is a killer, not just in the private sector. All these rumours of them ditching EHCPs potentially for pushy middle class parents. It is plain nasty. All children deserve to be given attention. Our class sizes and resources for children in this country are inadequate.

Agree with this... If we lose our EHCP/Send provision the country loses a GP who will have to full time home school and care for a child who cannot be looked after without those provisions.

SheilaFentiman · 09/08/2025 13:37

I paste this here for interest (you need to subscribe past the first few paragraphs but you can read it with a 7 day free trial).

The author used to be a policy adviser to Michael Gove when he was education secretary

samf.substack.com/p/the-great-vat-panic

twistyizzy · 09/08/2025 13:46

SheilaFentiman · 09/08/2025 13:37

I paste this here for interest (you need to subscribe past the first few paragraphs but you can read it with a 7 day free trial).

The author used to be a policy adviser to Michael Gove when he was education secretary

samf.substack.com/p/the-great-vat-panic

Thoroughly enjoyed reading the analysis Always great to hear from ex private school boys happily enjoying the fruits of their education and deciding to kick the ladder away for others.
Note that he joins ex independent school boys Starmer & Corbyn.

twistyizzy · 09/08/2025 13:48

He claims to have data from the first year of the policy”. What data is this? Is he talking about pupil numbers as of January 2025? The Gov and ISC pupil numbers census was pre VAT ie as Jan 2025. We do not have data post January 2025.

The DoE shows a drop of almost 16,000 kids as of Jan 2025:

23/24: 593,486
EHCP: 33,541
Mainstream: 559,945

VAT raid:
24/25: 582,477
EHCP (no VAT): 37,825
Mainstream (VAT): 544,652

15,293 fewer in mainstream private schools in Jan 2025.

twistyizzy · 09/08/2025 13:49

Now we have established a drop of 2.7% in mainstream private schools as of Jan 2025.

He says they fell in the state sector by 0.7. Gov says it dropped by 0.7% across both state and private.

0.1% decrease in secondary is not mirrored in the 5.1% decrease in independent secondary.