Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 3

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a third thread to discuss impact of VAT on private school fees, as the topic looks likely to run (and run). Though probably best to finish off the second thread before posting here, thx.

@Blankscreen "I've said before if Starmer really wanted fairness he would scrap grammar schools and faith schools and allocate places on a lottery"

Fair banding and a lottery. I agree. But not instead of VAT. As well as.

As someone with a child in a school that operates fair banding and a lottery, the moaning about it in the local area (and on many threads here) is quite something.

I suspect it would be very deeply unpopular.

It would also only work in areas with a lot of schools, and in areas with amazing public transport (or an expensive school transport system).

Where I live the 3 nearest secondaries are almost an hour or more away by public transport.

Why the need to control parental choices and their children? That is our job as parents, not that of ideologues/politicians. I do not want to live in a Socialist dystopia. And even if I did, I would probably find a way around it anyway and join the Labour ranks as I am pretty sure they will continue to use the best London comps on offer with all the bells and whistles anyway. Perhaps that party should start leading by example if they want the rest to fall in line.

So a lot of parents here agreeing with VAT but opposing the scrape of the grammar schools? What a double standard 🤣

No @ThisRedBee - you are misunderstanding the nuances and perhaps English is not your first language.

The vast majority here are pro choices.

Independents
Grammars
Comprehensives
Semi-selectives
SEN schools
Specialist Music/Ballet
Home Ed
Whatever

We would like to see more options for parents and more choice.

Personally I would like to see a voucher system that can be topped up by parents for the school of their choice.

Suspect most of those opposed to grammars are in favour of VAT as they seem to lean towards the idea that all children should be forced to attend a one-size-fits-all identical state school where nobody is allowed to be special in anyway. Most would probably also like to ban tutoring, extra curriculars and parents doing anything more than supervising the state-decreed homework lest it be unfair.

I am definitely pro choice. I have a friend who homeschools and does 1 day a week with an online French school and an Italian version every 2 weeks and her DC is becoming brilliant in those languages. I wish we could all just apply a little more flexibility. Said son’s is a musical prodigy (in my humble opinion) and being homeschooled for that reason and said friend has teaching qualifications so the kid is most definitely getting a brilliant education tailored to their needs and talents. There are people on these forums who want to ban homeschooling, tax private schools out of existence, ban grammars, ban academies, but essentially they are very clearly clueless about what “education” in the truest sense actually means.

This is the very real reality, half decent state schools local to me have been absolutely inundated with 6th form applicants from independent schools. All well and good that the SS will now get the pupil funding, but some of these schools and colleges are now up to 35 in a classroom for a-levels - not a lecture theatre, a standard classroom! This is not good for any child, whether it's those leaving PS due to cost or the existing SS yr11s going into sixth form, who will, for the first time ever see their class sizes post GCSEs go up!

Unless you're talking pre-acceptance day, most independent schools now charge around £1,000 deposits to stop this from happening.

£1k is a drop in the ocean compared to 5/7 years of school fees, it may be money well spent to have as a back up.

I think by this point most are committed. Don't get me wrong, I believe this policy is madness, and this removal of choice, in such a discriminatory manner will do nothing but harm every child in the UK. But, I think parents will now simply choose what they can afford straight up. Most PSs are now looking for kids, so competition amongst most of them is off the table, you will likely get a place outside of the top schools, and those who can't afford it will maximise their state chances. I don't think the whole 'state school backup' will reverse in the manner to think it will

I may have misunderstood your point, but the acceptance deadline for most independents seems to be tomorrow, meaning parents have been able to see what state school offers they’ve received before having to pay any deposit.

I’m not saying there will be a huge swing from families using state as backup to using PS as backup, I just don’t know. However, I know families who have done this, and it’s clear from other MN discussion boards (eg parents commenting today they are turning down top PS places in favour of eg Tiffin) and commenting that money is a big factor.

Of course some of them may have made the same decision even before VAT, but the VAT must be a deciding factor for some (again, I know families in this boat).

Deadline for pretty much all the Surrey schools, including any in GSA or HMC was yesterday.

Then as per a PP, if you’re in a position to consider going private at all, you can afford to write off a few £k deposit if you get a state offer you’re happy with.

I know a lot of independent school parents and they don't have 1k to write off. That's bonkers. Perhaps London bubble talk, but elsewhere, it's not real

Some foods are taxed though.

VAT stemmed from the original luxury tax and whilst it's been warped a little over the years, say for Caviar (nothing to do with mps self interests at all) it's purpose is to tax items that aren't deemed essential.

So taxing private education which isn't essential but rather a choice, seems to be in line with this principle.

The HMC code states that the first Monday in March is the earliest deadline they can set for acceptances/deposits (to coincide with national state school offer day) . Many private schools give an extra day, at least. Those that do not - query their intentions towards parents?

Give it up. VAT isn’t a luxury tax and education isn’t a luxury.

If private school is truly an option, then of course they have £1k available to hold the private place, which they might then decide to turn down. £1k is much, much less than they would pay if they go ahead with private - so the only thing stopping them from taking the state place would be the sunk cost fallacy. And for the price of private school, most people could get past a £1k sunk cost if that's what they choose.

But that's not (all) @ICouldBeVioletSky is talking about.

It's always been the case that many people who intend to go private also apply for state at the transition points. It's always been a sensible strategy - a lot can happen in the 6 months between applying and accepting the state offer, so you're keeping a backup during that time for free.

So state school offers only tell a small part of the story: the only change to the numbers we'll see at this point is those who wouldn't even have applied to state previously but did this year.

What we don't know yet is whether there's been a change in how many of the parents who have applied for state will decide to keep that place. That could be either because they prefer state if they get a good school, or simply that they didn't apply to private at all.

It's a very good point @ICouldBeVioletSky

You seem to have misunderstood the point.

I was talking about parents who apply to private school as a backup if they don’t get a state school offer they are happy with.

If they don’t get the state school offer then they go private spending anywhere from £20k-£30k+ p/a on fees for day secondary.

If they do get the state school offer they’re happy with then they take that, thus saving themselves £20k-£30k+ p/a - so they definitely could afford to write off a few £k deposit in this situation!

Sigh.

VAT is consumption tax, which replaced a luxury tax.

If it’s intended to tax “non essentials” how do you explain the fact that it’s payable on toilet paper?

Really, this isn’t your best point.

To write off? No. As a one off insurance policy that if needed becomes a deposit? Sure. i will either a) find out that I have gotten into desired state school in which case I am down £1k but save £18k, so net savings £17k in that year alone, or 2) find out I have not gotten into a decent state school and will be going private after all.

obviously it makes no sense if you couldn’t afford private to begin with, but for those struggling with the options and willing to go state if they get entry to a decent school it sounds like a wise use of £1k.

Sorry what do you mean about state/private nurseries? All nurseries are paid for aren't they?

Everyone going on about choice, but you can't "choose" private school if you're poor.

If it’s intended to tax “non essentials” how do you explain the fact that it’s payable on toilet paper?

Wasn't it originally imposed only on soft toilet paper, in the days when some people still used that horrid hard greaseproof paper type stuff? Soft is standard now of course.