Adult Apprenticeships - Maths and English requirements going

[TeenToTwenties]

Interested whether anyone has any view on this? My gut reaction is it is a good thing. If someone can do sufficient maths/English to pass the technical side of their qualification I don't think they should be held back from passing because they haven't passed maths/English GCSE / L2 FS.

But wondering what the alternative argument might be.

@SummersMath Did you even read the post you were replying to when spamming the boards advertising?

Training Providers will be over the moon as achieving FS is one of the main reasons for learners not completing however I am not sure it is a good thing. It means you will have learners 19+ with no/low levels of literacy + numeracy.

I think it’s a good thing. Alternatively, more widespread flexibility on functional skills

The Wolf report yonks ago highlighted the low standards of literacy + numeracy in working adults and FS were supposed to address those. Whether they did or nor is up for debate but it is still an issue so scrapping the requirements doesn't do anything to address that.

@twistyizzy They will already have low levels if they are dropping out of apprenticeships if they can't pass.

It seems to me removing the blocker is only going to be helpful, while simultaneously encouraging trying to pass.

I do think colleges should be permitted to offer FS to 16-19 even if they got a 3 at GCSE, at least in y13.

But at least they are getting some form of tuition and support.
It isn't being done for the benefit of learners, it is being done to raise pass rates.
Same as reducing the min length of stays on programmes from 12 months to 8 months.
So from the perspective of providers ie financial and data pov it is a good thing. Whether it benefits the learner is completely up for debate.

The "encouraging trying to pass" won't happen. The provider will ask the learner at Induction whether they want to do it, learner will say "no" so provider will write a generic statement in the ILP + tick "offered but declined" in ILR.

Surely many will still want to pass because future employers may require it?

But why should someone be prevented from gaining a qualification in eg plumbing because they are dyslexic and can't pass their English FS writing exam?

(Or can't pass gcse/fs maths as their non calculator skills aren't good enough, but can do maths fine with a calculator?)

I guess it depends on the apprenticeship.

Previously I would have said English and maths requirements are important, but do you really need those to be a nail tech or bricklayer?

Some people are just incapable of achieving the grades and it seems wrong to condemn them to a life of unskilled work when they could potentially do the job perfectly well.

Dyslexia shouldn't be a barrier if diagnosed because appropriate adjustments can be made and support given during teaching.

Instead of dumbing down apprenticeships they should have dumbed down the literacy and numeracy standard to literally purely functional. That way you would ensure that the level of attainment was still enough to do the job they being trained for.

There is a lot of maths needed for many jobs in construction, calculating materials, buying materials, structural angles, areas etc. Also need to read plans, installation standards, manufacturer instructions.

Reducing some apprenticeships to 8 months is also a bad move in my opinion. I've had books that have taken me longer to read than 8 months!

And if not diagnosed but still there?

I was flagging up my DD's difficulties with spelling from y2, but kept being told she wasn't too bad. covid hit y10 and completely messed her up.

Eventually we paid for an assessment when she was in y12. College didn't give her any dyslexia specific support. Y14 we paid for 1-1 tuition and she passed FS. But if you can't pay?

Dogs and cats won't care anyway.

@madroid Presumably the technical part of the apprenticeship will assess/need whatever maths/English it needs for the job?

I don't see why failure to get qualification A should prevent someone from getting qualification B.

All Apprentices should be screened as part of Induction and IA should pick up dyslexia markers

No the technical part doesn't cover specific maths/English.

Are you saying apprenticeships don't test/cover being able to use the maths/Englush necessary for the job??

Maybe not teaching, but eg if you need to know how to dilute hair dye in the ratio 1:5 Presumably thus is checked not just assumed?

Learners would need to know the ratio for whatever mixes are required in the Standard but not how to calculate ratio per se

I used to run FS programmes for apprentices of all ages and I can honestly say that adult learners benefited greatly from them and the overwhelming majority greatly appreciated them as well as using them to their advantage in the workplace. For some they were the first formal qualifications they had ever achieved.
We had vanishingly few fail, because we tailored our programmes to individuals as far as possible, provided extra support if needed and allowed extra time within reason. We did this with a small team on a tight budget. It was probably the most rewarding job I’ve had.
(And you absolutely need Maths and English skills in every workplace.)

So why are people dropping out of apprenticeships due to english/maths if the english and maths provision is so wonderful and tailored to SpLD etc etc?

And why is this wonderful provision not made available 16-19 to allow college kids to get their qualifications then?

Because some providers do it well whilst others don't. Surely it's not that hard to understand?
Providers get very little ££ for delivering FS compared to the Apprenticeship element. Therefore it isn't cost effective to deliver FS 'properly'.

In sixth form/college they only need to be working towards a GCSE/FS qualification in order to have their courses funded. Their A-levels or BTECs or whatever aren't withheld at the end if they still haven't passed the required level.

I'm not sure why it's different for apprenticeships? Why would an apprentice in construction have to pass M&E to finish their course but someone doing a construction BTEC not have to?

So why should people who end up with poorer providers be prevented from passing their technical qualification because they haven't got their l2 maths or English?

Honestly I'm all for passing maths & English, you should see the £££ we have spent on tutoring. But if someone can do the work for an apprenticeship, why should they be denied passing it due to an entirely different qualification?

But a student couldn't progress on to HE without maths/English even with A level or BTEC?